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thegooooooooooch
18-09-2006, 07:50 PM
It is common knowledge that the British Army is the best in the world.

Not the biggest by any stretch of the imagination but definitely the best.

So why are these brave men and women finding themselves worse equipped for the war they are fighting than a bunch of raghead Islamic extremists?

It was reported that last week, whilst under intense fire from Taliban small arms and RPGs that a platoon of the Parachute Regiment ran out of ammunition for their 7.1mm calibre machine gun leaving them badly exposed. It was days before one of the few serviceable army helicopters in Afghanistan was able to drop much need supplies. Meanwhile the army are also short of Land Rovers with the required armour which has again led various groups of soldiers being cut-off by the local militants. One thing you don’t want when fighting a mostly Russian equipped army are vehicles that fall to pieces after one rocket hit.

Meanwhile radio communication is nigh on impossible in some areas as the wrong field sets were issued to troops who found they couldn’t pick up other units two miles down the road never mind divisional HQ.

As you will have all seen on today’s news, a year after an RAF C130 was downed in Iraq it was revealed that foam insulation, commonplace in American military transport aircraft since the early fifties, has only been fitted to one Royal Air Force Hercules since the disaster. This is despite promises from then Secretary of Defence John Reid that ALL aircraft would be fitted with the foam so to further protect the lives of British service men and women.

There are many reasons for this but I’m afraid that the governments’ shambolic attitude towards its armed forces is the main factor behind this disgraceful situation.

Its continual efforts to almost rid the UK of an air force means the aforementioned badly needed helicopters are all parked on British soil as there are currently two combat choppers to every pilot. The fact is the army air corps, who were given the responsibility of flying the Chinooks and Apaches when they took over from the now decimated (by ‘cut-backs’) RAF squadrons, just aren’t good enough to fly such advanced aircraft. Also half the UK’s Chinooks are grounded at RAF Odiham in Hampshire in various states of disrepair.

The reason? Not enough money to service them.

How many more British lives will be lost before the government will pull their finger out and give these guys the right equipment in large amounts required?

This has nothing to do with who should be where and fighting who (my personal opinion is that we should leave Iraq asap but still have a job to do in Afghanistan). But surely if we are to fight a conflict anywhere in this world we must provide our superbly trained and organised troops with not only the best equipment going, but also the basics because this IS a matter of life and death.

tg

brianherron
18-09-2006, 08:38 PM
Gooch - I served for over 20 years in the army and can assure you that it has always (in peacetime) been a fact that the forces are poorly equiped. An example was when they first started to issue DPM Combat Equipment/clothing it was on sale in Aldershot market before a quarter of the army had received it. I and many others, went out and bought it, together with American army boots (which were superior to our old fashioned ones) and it was another 2 years before the whole of the army had received their issue. Tanks and weapons in the first gulf war were not fitted with dust/sand filters and were continually breaking down or jamming - the war was over before the problem was rectified. Another problem is that the army are issued with strict 'terms of engagement' which when under incoming fire from an unknown source, together with the damn media coverage, makes it impossible for the necessary and correct split second decisions to be made and this in turn can lead to loss of life. Equipment is costly and people are not willing to pay the necessary taxes in 'peacetime' to cover these costs. I'm afraid many more men/women will die before 'the war on terror' is over. Our arm forces are stretched to the limit meaning soldiers do not get the necessary R & R periods and are paid less than £2.00 an hour when in active combat so many are buying themselves out and going to work for security firms in Iraq and other Middle East stations - more money, better equipment and safer working conditions.

kc1968
18-09-2006, 11:35 PM
If we send our boys out there and ask them to do a job then they should be given the right tools. What we don't know is whether the blame lies with the Government or with the Army top brass or the officers in the field in charge of logistics. This has to be sorted as lives are at stake.

You'd never catch the Taliban not equipping their boys properly.

Shanghairy
18-09-2006, 11:49 PM
If we send our boys out there and ask them to do a job then they should be given the right tools. What we don't know is whether the blame lies with the Government or with the Army top brass or the officers in the field in charge of logistics. This has to be sorted as lives are at stake.

You'd never catch the Taliban not equipping their boys properly.

It is weird. The government says repeatedly it hasn't been asked for serious reinforcements... and the army doesn't seem to deny that. But the need for equipment and personel upgrades seems obvious?

Stoned Rose
19-09-2006, 12:00 AM
It is weird. The government says repeatedly it hasn't been asked for serious reinforcements... and the army doesn't seem to deny that. But the need for equipment and personel upgrades seems obvious?


Oye, there's way to much money to be made out of this shit, fuck the grunts.

kc1968
19-09-2006, 12:11 AM
It is weird. The government says repeatedly it hasn't been asked for serious reinforcements... and the army doesn't seem to deny that. But the need for equipment and personel upgrades seems obvious?

The other thing that baffles me is that the foreign troops are only meant to be there as the supporting cast to the Afghan Army. Yet, most of the Afghan Army seem to be hiding out in the safety of Kabul and the north.

We were told that Al Quada/ Taliban were on the run and hiding out in caves but it looks like from the pictures I've seen that it is conventional warfare out in the open.

What a shame it is that most of the Nato troops are in Iraq when they should be finishing things off in Afghanistan where (unlike in Iraq) there are actually Taliban members at large. In that sense I agree with Gooch (only on this one occasion mind).

Stoned Rose
19-09-2006, 12:19 AM
The other thing that baffles me is that the foreign troops are only meant to be there as the supporting cast to the Afghan Army. Yet, most of the Afghan Army seem to be hiding out in the safety of Kabul and the north.

We were told that Al Quada/ Taliban were on the run and hiding out in caves but it looks like from the pictures I've seen that it is conventional warfare out in the open.

What a shame it is that most of the Nato troops are in Iraq when they should be finishing things off in Afghanistan where (unlike in Iraq) there are actually Taliban members at large. In that sense I agree with Gooch (only on this one occasion mind).

Hey there's money to be made there dude!

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1616665.ece

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060903/news_1n3opium.html

http://www.irinnews.org/webspecials/Opium/default.asp

160% :eek: of the worlds opium is grown there, I see an opportunity to make some serious money (untaxed) man.

kc, I thought you'd love it man.

kc1968
19-09-2006, 12:35 AM
Hey there's money to be made there dude!

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1616665.ece

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060903/news_1n3opium.html

http://www.irinnews.org/webspecials/Opium/default.asp

160% :eek: of the worlds opium is grown there, I see an opportunity to make some serious money (untaxed) man.

kc, I thought you'd love it man.

Hey, you've confused me with Gonzo. I'm totally against untaxed capitalism.

Religion is the opiate of the masses and the Taliban seem to be very religious. But lets not forget it was Western imperialists who encouraged the cultivation of poppies in the region so that they could do a bit of illegal drug pushing in China. Britain even fought a war to assert it's right to push drugs.

The Empire! You gotta love it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

Stoned Rose
22-09-2006, 10:58 PM
Major calls RAF support 'useless' in a leaked report.

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5371392.stm)

The MOD were bound to respond as they did for the RAF but still an embarrasing leaked email.

There was also a report on Channel 4 news yesterday which reported that the causality rate in Afghanistan as reported by the government was flawed and artificially low seen as the official figures do not include injured soldiers that are treated “in the field” so to speak, i.e. those that are treated and remain in Afghanistan. The official figures only count service men killed or actually flown back to the UK.

I find a link if I can, here it is:

http://www.channel4.com/news/content/news-storypage.jsp?id=180411

All this bickering can't be good for the moral of the troups.

kc1968
23-09-2006, 12:28 AM
It is common knowledge that the British Army is the best in the world.



Yeah but who has the best air force?

Stoned Rose
23-09-2006, 01:43 AM
Yeah but who has the best air force?


Not really fair that kc, Gooch's point is still valid when it comes to the RAF.

Probably also the best pilots, navigators, ground crews, etc, etc in the world but also under resourced and currently being stretched to the limits with poor out dated equipment especially when compared to our friends from over the pond.

Which I think was the purpose of this thread, not a criticism of our brave forces rather but that they all face an unnecessary risk that they have to deal with seen as they are all poorly equipped for the job that they are currently being asked to do.

Where the money is to come from to supply them with the necessary equipment is a huge question and from what I think Gooch has already said he thinks we should pull out of Iraq and concentrate our forces full effectiveness on Afghanistan is his view. (Please correct me if I'm wrong!)

Personally I’m sceptical about even doing that, the whole mess over there could turn Iraq into a more radical place than Afghanistan if both us and the States did leave it to try to sort itself out on its own.

Besides it won't happen, there's to much oil there.

Stoned Rose
09-10-2006, 12:14 AM
Just to poke a stick in the old hornets nest.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6032249.stm

The Soviets failed there in the 80‘s, and the CIA trained them (taleban) after all.

Where is is this going?

noelpne
12-10-2006, 06:21 PM
No-one from outside Afganistan ruled Afganistan - not even during Queen Victorias time. We had a extremely hard job just trying to hang onto the Khyber Pass.

It's a no-win situation - skilled tribesmen who can literally manufacture their own guns, propped up by Poppy-money, in inpenetrable mountain "turf".