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Thread: Time to start thinking about Brexit again

  1. #561
    Director raefil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pnematic
    Does that include those Students who collected their mates ballot papers and voted Labour several times ?

    And those same Students need to know that the abolition of University Fees was an " ambition " not a " promise ".

    Just so they are clear - it's only right and fair .
    Dear oh dear mat, you always struck me as far more intelligent than any of that.

    Yes Corbyn and Labour did announce they will abolish university fees, no they didnt announce, ever that they would wipe out all student debt. They did say its something theyd like to look into but not something theyd put as a promise in their manifesto.

    As for the students multiple voting, strangely the, under police investigation, Tory leader of lancashire county Council wants photo IDs bringing in to all elections in future because he reckons he has evidence of this. When challenged to take that evidence to the Police he went earily quiet.
    "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it"

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by raefil View Post
    Dear oh dear mat, you always struck me as far more intelligent than any of that.

    Yes Corbyn and Labour did announce they will abolish university fees, no they didnt announce, ever that they would wipe out all student debt. They did say its something theyd like to look into but not something theyd put as a promise in their manifesto.

    As for the students multiple voting, strangely the, under police investigation, Tory leader of lancashire county Council wants photo IDs bringing in to all elections in future because he reckons he has evidence of this. When challenged to take that evidence to the Police he went earily quiet.
    Just threw a bomb in to liven up the debate Raef - you know me by now.

    Didn't take long for the Corbynistas to jump on it !

  3. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by pnematic View Post
    Just threw a bomb in to liven up the debate Raef - you know me by now.

    Didn't take long for the Corbynistas to jump on it !
    I'm no Corbynista btw.....

  4. #564
    Manager Liberation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNEESSEX View Post
    I'm no Corbynista btw.....
    But you did jump on it ..
    Vote For John Brown

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberation View Post
    But you did jump on it ..
    I did...free country and all that. I couldn't allow myself to be called a Corbynista tho.....several steps too far!

  6. #566
    Manager Liberation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNEESSEX View Post
    I did...free country and all that. I couldn't allow myself to be called a Corbynista tho.....several steps too far!
    Nothing wrong with Jeremy...........There's a good few million of us out here that respect him but don't give two fecks for the labour party or care about it............. You should remember that if you ever want to win an election by putting your middle grounders up as representatives.....It won't work !!
    Vote For John Brown

  7. #567
    ANARCHIST Nobber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNEESSEX View Post
    I did...free country and all that. I couldn't allow myself to be called a Corbynista tho.....several steps too far!
    Essex and Jeremy sitting in a tree

    Xxxxxx
    Raefil, He's the second best moderator this forum has ever had, closely behind Nobber.

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNEESSEX View Post
    I'm no Corbynista btw.....
    Sorry Essex

    x

  9. #569
    PNE Exile LostinSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobber View Post
    Long piece so I've taken out some juicy bits for here:

    Jeremy Corbyn is not the first leader of the Labour party to have form as a Eurosceptic. Hugh Gaitskell was so fearful of the drive for European political union that he warned about Britain ending a thousand years of history as an independent state.

    Corbyn was one member of this band. John McDonnell, now the shadow chancellor, was another. Unlike the majority of their parliamentary colleagues and most trade union leaders, they never bought the idea that being a progressive meant being positive about Europe. They saw nothing especially progressive about mass unemployment, the impact of the common agricultural policy on the developing world, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, or the bias towards austerity ingrained in the stability and growth pact. Rather, they saw neoliberalism being hardwired into the European project. As indeed it was.

    Both men campaigned for remain in the referendum, albeit not with great gusto. Labour’s 2017 manifesto pledged to honour the result of the referendum. The leadership has come down hard on MPs who tabled amendments to the Queen’s speech demanding that Britain stay in the single market. All of which is significant. Corbyn and McDonnell are smart enough to understand the risks of Brexit, but they also see it as an opportunity to push through their own economic agenda. Which is why they are exploring the freedom Brexit would provide for public ownership, lower rates of VAT to help those on the lowest incomes, state aid to support sunrise industries, and fair trade agreements with developing countries.

    Remainers on the left would argue that there is no need to leave the EU for this to happen, but they are wrong about that for two reasons. The first is that a radical socialist programme that included a different approach to state aid, state ownership, public procurement and managed trade would be deemed illegal under European law. The second is that without Brexit, the impetus for change would quickly dissipate.

    So what, say remainers. The status quo is better than Brexit, the baleful consequences of which are already clear from the slowdown in the economy and warnings from banks and transnational firms that they will move at least some of their operations out of the UK unless they get the sort of deal they want.

    But the left needs to be very careful about running with the idea that business should be able to veto decisions made by the electorate. If Labour had won the recent election, Corbyn would have had a mandate for extensive nationalisation, ending austerity and higher taxation on companies and the well-off. Big business would certainly have cut up rough about all that. There would have been warnings from the Confederation of British Industry about its members moving thousands of jobs out of the country. Would those calling for a second EU referendum be calling for another general election so voters could think again about supporting such a dangerously radical policy? Probably not.

    Nor, given that Britain has been through the decade from hell, is the idea of a return to the status quo especially attractive. The four freedoms of the single market have made it easier for companies to move money, goods, services and people around the EU, but workers have not benefited. There has been virtually no growth in UK per-capita incomes since the start of the financial crisis in 2007, something that has not happened outside wartime in the modern age.

    Britain is a low-wage economy with a chronic balance of payments problem. Repeated bouts of de-industrialisation mean there has not been a surplus on manufactured goods since the early 1980s. Growth has become ever more dependent on consumers’ appetite for debt, and the willingness of the Bank of England to make servicing that borrowing as cheap as possible. The UK’s poorer regions are 20 years behind the south-east in terms of living standards.

    They have quite legitimately asked leavers to explain what Britain will look like after leaving the EU. But they have come up with no solutions themselves for sorting out the country’s long-term economic problems. The assumption seems to be that all will be well provided Britain’s supply chains are protected by continued membership of the single market, and the City retains its role as Europe’s premier financial centre. This is sheer fantasy. If membership of the single market were a panacea, Britain would not have the weakest investment record of any G7 country. Nor would it be running such a big trade deficit.

    As it is, Labour is now led by somebody who spent years in the political wilderness with a simple message: that there was something inherently rotten about modern capitalism; that there were radical solutions to that malaise; and that Europe was part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/commenti...xit-leaving-eu

    I still have no clue why anyone who thinks they are left wing voted reamain, fucking ridiculous!
    Probably because you don't really know what left wing really means.

  10. #570
    ANARCHIST Nobber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostinSpace View Post
    Probably because you don't really know what left wing really means.
    What's it mean?
    Raefil, He's the second best moderator this forum has ever had, closely behind Nobber.

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