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  • #76
    Originally posted by FootballcrazyP_ View Post

    Not itn so no, but our crowds are not enough, most Championship clubs are on a 3 year ffp plan according to the BBC article in the summer. We definately cut back this Season, Iím more than happy having a consoldation season if it means we stay within the FFP rules. I read somewhere 17 clubs could fall foul of it at the end of the season. That means 17 clubs need promotion or bust this season. Lets see what happens in January, but iím happy with Hemming, the clubs activity in the Market but not itís position in the League. The club is powerless to deal with it atm as no Tranfers or Loans available, many on here have ruled out out of contract players but now would be a good time to look at a few with short deals with options to extend if they impress. So Hemmings and Co like us have to sit it out till January. If results donít drastically improve then Neil will be ready for the chop. I donít buy the bullshit rumour that Neil has fallen out with Hemmings over transfers policey or that heís messing with the team as some protest. Neil is a good proffesional Manager but is having some mid life team selection crisis. So lets stop attacking the club, itís owner, Manager, players and try and create something positive.

    would you but PNE with all the negativity going on, you want people to buy, invest etc, then fans need to get behind the club to show investors weíll support them. Iím sure if anyone looked at the club, saw the owner plowing in millions and the fans demanding more, calling for him to go, they wouldnít be back for a second look.

    Trevors a maneuverer and a manipulator...... Even if you were correct about ffp ( which you most certainly aren't ) .. He's perfectly capable of getting round it.
    Vote For John Brown

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by FootballcrazyP_ View Post

      So lets stop attacking the club, itís owner, Manager, players and try and create something positive.

      then fans need to get behind the club to show investors weíll support them. Iím sure if anyone looked at the club, saw the owner plowing in millions and the fans demanding more, calling for him to go, they wouldnít be back for a second look.
      Its not the customers responsibility to attract new investors to a business surely ? The negativity has come from the club, (not the supporters who have been more than patient imho )and its seeping into supporters and players alike.

      Theres a clear message coming from the club its not a positive one . they cant expect a happy clappy response and they aren't getting one.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Liberation View Post


        Trevors a maneuverer and a manipulator...... Even if you were correct about ffp ( which you most certainly aren't ) .. He's perfectly capable of getting round it.
        City seem to manage it.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by FootballcrazyP_ View Post

          Not itn so no, but our crowds are not enough, most Championship clubs are on a 3 year ffp plan according to the BBC article in the summer. We definately cut back this Season, Iím more than happy having a consoldation season if it means we stay within the FFP rules.
          http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/f...-explained.php

          'Championship clubs will be allowed to lose an average of £13m a season (or £5m if the owner doesnít inject cash into the club to cover the loss). Hence, a long-standing Championship such as Brighton, is able to lose up to £39m over the three-season assessment period.'

          Article is a few years old, but I think the rules are the same. We're no where near this figure.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by kbd_pne View Post
            Just because he is a losing some money year on year (supposedly), it doesnít mean TH isnít only in it for himself. Keeping us afloat and treading water is more about his interests, rather than a burning passion for the club.

            If he really cared about PNE and its fans, he wouldnít have allowed a tax bill not to be paid, leading to winding up petition, leading to all the shares being frozen and then shafting fans buying them at a low price (then we were relegated the following year!).

            Also, if he was that bothered about the fans or the club, he wouldnít have used the PNE brand and the fans to get planning permission on Ingol, only to then get itchy feet about the cost of the training ground. We were told at the time it wouldnít affect the playing budget, now at the recent forum we are told that we have a choice between signing a striker for example of building the training ground (we arenít doing either of them seemingly).

            We are in a sort of purgatory where he will not invest significantly in the squad but asks for far too much money when potential new owners / investors come calling.

            As others have said, itís hard to understand why he retains ownership of the club.
            To say he's "supposedly" losing money is ridiculous, he is losing money because he covers the losses of the club.

            The club couldn't afford to pay the tax bill, that's why there was a winding up petition. They asked Hemmings to pay and he decided he'd thrown enough money in and if he was going to spend any more he wanted full control. Shareholders got what the shares were worth, unsurprisingly that was fuck all because a bankrupt football club in Lancashire is hardly going to fly up the stock market. If they bought them at £5 a share expecting to make a profit, more fool them. There was a reason none of the shares were bought up by investment banks and hedge funds, they weren't worth anywhere near £5 each.

            Planning permission was always likely to be granted on Ingol, regardless of whether or not a training ground was attached to it. The golf club was no longer a viable business and the council can't demonstrate a 5 year supply of housing, they've already conceded that and developments have gone through at appeal after being refused by the planning committee. It's near impossible for the council to reject a planning application for housing at the moment and if they do it will be granted at appeal.

            Hemmings is not the perfect owner by any means and someone needs to drill it into him that we will go nowhere on the current budget and he will keep losing £6-7 million a year, if he wants any of his money back, he needs to spend a bit more first. But that doesn't mean that everything is thrown at him is anywhere near true, especially the stuff about the shares.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by buckshawwhite View Post

              Do you honestly feel that the PNE Fan base behaviour is unique in football? Many fans demand more of their club & I feel that TH gets a relatively easy ride off the PNE fanbase. No demonstrations, protests or anything. The most stick he gets is mainly limited to the written word moans on mediums like this. Many potential owners recognise that football fans in general are fickle and that a little bit of on pitch success will keep them happy & increase volumes. We are a decent buy & lets hope there is a buyer out there soon for both our & TH's sake
              I didn't we was unique behavior in football, I am saying some are asking way more than we will get, whether you like it or not, we have a small fan base compared to many, we are making a loss and Hemmings is balancing the books and at the moment people are snapping up clubs in Major debt on the cheap thinking they can do better and has seen that is not always the case. Bolton for example, it is so hard to take over because their debts and overheads are to big. Wigan, great they got new owners. but they have only just returned to profit after having a massive sale. We are building a club.

              Originally posted by norky84 View Post

              http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/f...-explained.php

              'Championship clubs will be allowed to lose an average of £13m a season (or £5m if the owner doesnít inject cash into the club to cover the loss). Hence, a long-standing Championship such as Brighton, is able to lose up to £39m over the three-season assessment period.'

              Article is a few years old, but I think the rules are the same. We're no where near this figure.
              the article is still correct, We are making a loss,
              This was 2016
              Preston North End
              Company name: Preston North End Ltd
              Owned by: Wordon Group, a company incorporated in the Isle of Man and controlled by the family interests of Trevor Hemmings
              Turnover: £10.6m (£7.3m)
              Pre-tax loss: £4.4m (-£4.2m)
              Staff costs: £10.6m (£7.8m)
              Wage-to-turnover ratio: 100 per cent
              Highest paid director: £150,000 (£148,000)
              Net debt: Not stated; Hemmings advanced £4.6m during the year taking total loans to £28.1m
              Auditor: KPMG
              Y/E: 30 June 2016
              North End's turnover rose by £3.3m during the season thanks to higher pay-outs in the Championship compared to League One and a rise in average attendances from 11,020 to 13,007. However, increasing staff costs contributed to widening losses with the club admitting that cashflow "continues to be adverse". Directors added the Deepdale club therefore remain reliant on the financial support of Hemmings.


              3 Butter Pies and a coke please : D

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by FootballcrazyP_ View Post

                I didn't we was unique behavior in football, I am saying some are asking way more than we will get, whether you like it or not, we have a small fan base compared to many, we are making a loss and Hemmings is balancing the books and at the moment people are snapping up clubs in Major debt on the cheap thinking they can do better and has seen that is not always the case. Bolton for example, it is so hard to take over because their debts and overheads are to big. Wigan, great they got new owners. but they have only just returned to profit after having a massive sale. We are building a club.



                the article is still correct, We are making a loss,
                This was 2016
                Preston North End
                Company name: Preston North End Ltd
                Owned by: Wordon Group, a company incorporated in the Isle of Man and controlled by the family interests of Trevor Hemmings
                Turnover: £10.6m (£7.3m)
                Pre-tax loss: £4.4m (-£4.2m)
                Staff costs: £10.6m (£7.8m)
                Wage-to-turnover ratio: 100 per cent
                Highest paid director: £150,000 (£148,000)
                Net debt: Not stated; Hemmings advanced £4.6m during the year taking total loans to £28.1m
                Auditor: KPMG
                Y/E: 30 June 2016
                North End's turnover rose by £3.3m during the season thanks to higher pay-outs in the Championship compared to League One and a rise in average attendances from 11,020 to 13,007. However, increasing staff costs contributed to widening losses with the club admitting that cashflow "continues to be adverse". Directors added the Deepdale club therefore remain reliant on the financial support of Hemmings.



                " I am saying some are asking way more than we will get"


                Trevor being the major one.
                Vote For John Brown

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by FootballcrazyP_ View Post

                  I am saying some are asking way more than we will get, whether you like it or not, we have a small fan base compared to many, we are making a loss

                  Exactly, seems some people can't see it from the perspective of someone who isn't a North End fan. There are a few clubs our size who've been bankrolled to the big time (Wigan, Bournemouth) but most clubs our size haven't been. The ones who have have got very lucky and we can't just demand to get lucky too. For every Bournemouth there's a Leyton Orient, we're doing better than most clubs our size.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by FootballcrazyP_ View Post

                    I didn't we was unique behavior in football, I am saying some are asking way more than we will get, whether you like it or not, we have a small fan base compared to many, we are making a loss and Hemmings is balancing the books and at the moment people are snapping up clubs in Major debt on the cheap thinking they can do better and has seen that is not always the case. Bolton for example, it is so hard to take over because their debts and overheads are to big. Wigan, great they got new owners. but they have only just returned to profit after having a massive sale. We are building a club.



                    the article is still correct, We are making a loss,
                    This was 2016
                    Preston North End
                    Company name: Preston North End Ltd
                    Owned by: Wordon Group, a company incorporated in the Isle of Man and controlled by the family interests of Trevor Hemmings
                    Turnover: £10.6m (£7.3m)
                    Pre-tax loss: £4.4m (-£4.2m)
                    Staff costs: £10.6m (£7.8m)
                    Wage-to-turnover ratio: 100 per cent
                    Highest paid director: £150,000 (£148,000)
                    Net debt: Not stated; Hemmings advanced £4.6m during the year taking total loans to £28.1m
                    Auditor: KPMG
                    Y/E: 30 June 2016
                    North End's turnover rose by £3.3m during the season thanks to higher pay-outs in the Championship compared to League One and a rise in average attendances from 11,020 to 13,007. However, increasing staff costs contributed to widening losses with the club admitting that cashflow "continues to be adverse". Directors added the Deepdale club therefore remain reliant on the financial support of Hemmings.

                    But we're no where near the £13 million a year average we're allowed to have a loss of. So this year isn't about balancing the books like you said, as we're no where near breaking the FFP rules. Even more so having received £12 million for Hugill and Cunningham.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by FootballcrazyP_ View Post

                      I didn't we was unique behavior in football, I am saying some are asking way more than we will get, whether you like it or not, we have a small fan base compared to many, we are making a loss and Hemmings is balancing the books and at the moment people are snapping up clubs in Major debt on the cheap thinking they can do better and has seen that is not always the case. Bolton for example, it is so hard to take over because their debts and overheads are to big. Wigan, great they got new owners. but they have only just returned to profit after having a massive sale. We are building a club.



                      the article is still correct, We are making a loss,
                      This was 2016
                      Preston North End
                      Company name: Preston North End Ltd
                      Owned by: Wordon Group, a company incorporated in the Isle of Man and controlled by the family interests of Trevor Hemmings
                      Turnover: £10.6m (£7.3m)
                      Pre-tax loss: £4.4m (-£4.2m)
                      Staff costs: £10.6m (£7.8m)
                      Wage-to-turnover ratio: 100 per cent
                      Highest paid director: £150,000 (£148,000)
                      Net debt: Not stated; Hemmings advanced £4.6m during the year taking total loans to £28.1m
                      Auditor: KPMG
                      Y/E: 30 June 2016
                      North End's turnover rose by £3.3m during the season thanks to higher pay-outs in the Championship compared to League One and a rise in average attendances from 11,020 to 13,007. However, increasing staff costs contributed to widening losses with the club admitting that cashflow "continues to be adverse". Directors added the Deepdale club therefore remain reliant on the financial support of Hemmings.

                      I don't see how this figure for the loans outstanding (from the owner) ties in with the figure of c.£75 million apparently quoted by the club a few weeks ago. £28m + 2 x £6m p.a. = £40m???

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Returning to Wigan, I can't really fathom why anyone would want to buy them. I assume their wage bill and other outgoings are similar to PNE's, probably higher while their gates are probably a bit lower, so you would imagine they would need subsidising to the same extent as Hemmings reportedly subsidises PNE-to the tune of around £5-6m pa.

                        So what's in it for this Hong Kong company? They do seem to have got the club cheaply, it wouldn't surprise me if they started selling off assets if they don't return to the PL in a couple of seasons.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Well as I said earlier I don't really understand were the Owner is going now with the Club

                          I cannot honestly see how bringing in lower League players are going to get us into the Premiership where presumably Trevor thinks the money will be, either from the football itself or a takeover
                          If I have read it right a Club dropping down from the Prem will be on three years parachute payments (the lowest Club is promised 100 Mil end of season) plus their reduced revenue from gates. No wonder they can keep their best players to try to get back up

                          I doubt Trevor can keep up with that or want to
                          So whatís his plan Blowed if I know Even the sale of one player ever so offten isn't going to bring in money to cover his investment

                          If he just wants to contribute 4Mill a year then he is wasting his money, still he has enough of it reportedly

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by jonboy View Post
                            On the basis that everyone is entitled to an opinion, here we go. Trev is a rich, successful business man and likes a flutter. He is not particularly a football fan or philanthropist. When the opportunity to take control of the club for effectively peanuts and create a way of hedging tax liability within his group of companies came along, it was a flutter he couldn't resist. For a relatively small stake he took a punt at landing the riches provided by Premiership - not least because that was the only way he would ever get any money back i.e. do an Oyston. If the premiership isn't going to happen (and lets face it he's never going to go "balls out" for it), there another approach. Use the cover story of a training ground to land the site at Ingol - which he has chased for decades and make some money back from the houses. Also, continue to keep your "group" tax liability as low as possible by offsetting PNE losses against other company profits. Finally try and find someone with more money than sense and get the riddler to convince them to pay over the odds for the club. In the meantime take out what you can from selling assets and keep out goings to a minimum. When the transfer window opens, amuse yourself by having another flutter and see if you can get another Allan Browne type (was it £3k we spent on him). I have been going on North End for over 50 odd years, because it's my club and for the craic that surrounds match day, not because I expect Trev (or anyone else to bank role us to the premier league). All was going well till a couple of years back when someone gave Trev a microphone after he had too many scoops and we got the "we want to continue climbing the ladder" speech. Remember it's the hope that kills you! In the meantime, go on the match, have a few pints, have a laugh and a moan and repeat it every 2 weeks. Thanks Trev, but don't spoil it so close to the end 'eh?
                            He offset 242k losses from PNE against group profits last year, 705k the year before. Thought it would be more to be honest but this is set against a 47m profit for the Northern Trust (not sure what other entities he owns)

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Meldrew's Ghost View Post

                              I don't see how this figure for the loans outstanding (from the owner) ties in with the figure of c.£75 million apparently quoted by the club a few weeks ago. £28m + 2 x £6m p.a. = £40m???
                              These are just the loans, they donít include amounts converted into to share capital or his original investment

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Schemer View Post
                                Returning to Wigan, I can't really fathom why anyone would want to buy them. I assume their wage bill and other outgoings are similar to PNE's, probably higher while their gates are probably a bit lower, so you would imagine they would need subsidising to the same extent as Hemmings reportedly subsidises PNE-to the tune of around £5-6m pa.

                                So what's in it for this Hong Kong company? They do seem to have got the club cheaply, it wouldn't surprise me if they started selling off assets if they don't return to the PL in a couple of seasons.
                                No need for assumptions

                                Details are here>>> https://www.wiganathletic.com/news/2...cial-accounts/

                                £4.3M profit but includes parachute payment of £17.7M & player sale profits of £4.6M

                                Player wages £16.6M


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