Uncle Trev.

[epsilon]

TH also puts money into the club by paying for the tax benefit his other companies use. It is included in the accounts every year.

I am pretty sure that this figure is included in the 'quoted' TH annual subsidy.

I looked for this in the 2016-17 accounts. As expected, it wasn't obvious to me.

It may be interesting for the future but I'll leave it for now.

However, p.24 shows that 3.109m interest was written off and 5.615m new loans were made. Using this :
start: 28.1
new: + 5.6
w/off: - 3.1
finish: 30.6 (which is about right)

In this example another contribution by Hemmings was 3.1m which is added to the 64.0m from before to give 67.1m.

 

[epsilon]

As for rating Uncle Trev (UT), along with anything else that needs to be, I see 4 items which could be scored :
UT - performance in saving the club and stabilising it
ongoing performance of the club (league position, entertainment etc)
UT/PR/AN - efficiency of cash reserves that have been deployed in the club
UT- his altruism as a member of the broader community

These are all different things.

Also bear in mind that if UT decided to put his money into another sport, NE might get nothing at all. He wouldn't be wrong if he did that.

I've thought about these things and I could give a score (but I'll defer). What do others think ?

Some championship clubs operate off many 10s of millions every year. Yet only 3 get promoted. The ones which miss out must surely score badly on that third item: efficiency of cash reserves...

 

[ratherbelucky]

I think financial fair play would limit his investment to 15 million a year so that is the most we can loose a year . Currently it is about 5 milliom a year on average maybe a bit more or less . Would an extra 10 million a year gaurentee promotion or is the current way of gradually building and developing players the best way to go. Spending loads on player wages wont always help .

 

[chorleythehord]

You can see the money he is putting in as and when it goes in now as all new money goes in as shares, not loans to comply with Financial Fair Play, and share allotments have to be recorded at companies house. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00039494/filing-history

If you look at the allotments of shares you can see this season he has put on new cash of just over £1m on 24 July and £2.15m on 26 September. So that is £3m+ already. I suspect another allotment will be recorded shortly to fund the recent transfers.

I don’t agree with everything he does, or the way he does it, but by god im glad he is doing what he is doing. It’s astonishing that some Fans would rather he wasn’t here! When he does finally pack in, it will be a big wake up call to many. I don’t think they realise how expensive it is to sustain championship football , and the lack of people willing to do so for clubs like us.

 

[epsilon]

Thanks for those comments.
Useful to be able to see the allotment of shares.
(On page 1 of the document it shows how many shares were bought and for how much. £ 1001 in these two examples.)

In times gone by, when a community needed money to fund something that had annual costs, like a school, it was typically done by a benefactor setting up a trust in perpetuity. It's not a new problem.

 

[Pilot]

TH also puts money into the club by paying for the tax benefit his other companies use. It is included in the accounts every year.

I am pretty sure that this figure is included in the 'quoted' TH annual subsidy.

I don’t think so as the amount paid for the losses will presumably be equivalent to the tax saving, so there is no net cost to Trev’s other companies.
Trev of course paid to acquire the shares when he took over ownership and this won’t be included in the accounts anywhere.

 

[LostinYorkshire]

I don’t think so as the amount paid for the losses will presumably be equivalent to the tax saving, so there is no net cost to Trev’s other companies.
Trev of course paid to acquire the shares when he took over ownership and this won’t be included in the accounts anywhere.

I haven't looked into it in detail but many figures quoted by club officials appear to incude the repayment of tax losses in TH subsidies.

It is perfectly understandable why it is included in the accounts. It negates all the claims about TH making money through the club losing money. That would be a theoretical impossibility. Perosnally, I manage my own 'losses' to minimise taxation but have found it impossible to actually turn these losses into a profit.

But from what I have seen this 'donation' has been added to the annual TH subsidy.

 

[LostinYorkshire]

I don’t think so as the amount paid for the losses will presumably be equivalent to the tax saving, so there is no net cost to Trev’s other companies.
Trev of course paid to acquire the shares when he took over ownership and this won’t be included in the accounts anywhere.

The payment of compensation by TH companies for the benfit of tax losses is included in all the PNE accounts I have seen. As you say it is no net cost to TH but the numbers I have heard from club officlas appear to include this in the 'annual subsidy'. It is possible I may have misinterpreted things.

Any share buy backs should be included in previous accounts.

 

[Pilot]

The payment of compensation by TH companies for the benfit of tax losses is included in all the PNE accounts I have seen. As you say it is no net cost to TH but the numbers I have heard from club officlas appear to include this in the 'annual subsidy'. It is possible I may have misinterpreted things.

Any share buy backs should be included in previous accounts.

I was referring to the sums paid to former shareholders to acquire the shares, these amounts aren’t in the accounts.

 

[epsilon]

One of the things that Hemmings did in 2010 is avoid the avalanche of problems that can beset clubs when they exceed their financial means.

A few clubs have been mentioned already, but not Chester City F.C.

I'll extract a few quotes from this article but here's the link, as a starter ...

Chester City F.C. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The original company no longer exists.

 

[LostinYorkshire]

I was referring to the sums paid to former shareholders to acquire the shares, these amounts aren’t in the accounts.

The 2010/11 accounts for Deepdale PNE holdings shows the cost of buying the shares in PNEFC Plc was £165,000, this includes shares bought from Guild Ventures for £46,000. Of course whatever Guild ventures paid for the initial shares should be added to the total amount TH has put in.

 

[Former Member]

You can see the money he is putting in as and when it goes in now as all new money goes in as shares, not loans to comply with Financial Fair Play, and share allotments have to be recorded at companies house. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00039494/filing-history

If you look at the allotments of shares you can see this season he has put on new cash of just over £1m on 24 July and £2.15m on 26 September. So that is £3m+ already. I suspect another allotment will be recorded shortly to fund the recent transfers.

I don’t agree with everything he does, or the way he does it, but by god im glad he is doing what he is doing. It’s astonishing that some Fans would rather he wasn’t here! When he does finally pack in, it will be a big wake up call to many. I don’t think they realise how expensive it is to sustain championship football , and the lack of people willing to do so for clubs like us.

My feelings towards the owner have somewhat softened after the January transfer window. Then I remember that all of it should have happened in summer...!

I do however recognise how much money he loses. I don't think we'll be short on investors when he packs it in though.

 

[paddysr]

My feelings towards the owner have somewhat softened after the January transfer window. Then I remember that all of it should have happened in summer...!

I do however recognise how much money he loses. I don't think we'll be short on investors when he packs it in though.

If anything this window has annoyed me more. We all know that had we been sat in 12th or 13th at the start of January this wouldn't have happened and yet it was the type of window we needed.

 

[epsilon]

Hemmings is dedicated to building something. There's no doubt in my mind.

However, he's disconnected from the 'immediacy' aspect, which means he doesn't get ripped off.

It took him 18 months to get the Chairman that he wanted (advisor, I know).

Even longer to get the manager he wanted...

If Hemmings was forced to to do things immediately, we wouldn't have him at all. Other successful businessmen have tried this in football and spent hundreds of millions lining the pockets of agents and (to some degree) fairweather players, to get immediate results.

It's well-documented.

There was more money in the summer (as far as I can tell) but the right players weren't available. We did get Storey though and Ledson. I predict a great future for Ledson, bar injury.

And Hughes.

I see all of those as critical signings.

January is a continuation.

January has been mad with the signings made - consider how much work went in to that. And there were negotiations which didn't result in signings (like Johnson). Wouldn't surprise me if Ridsdale spent the first week of February in bed.

I thought there were some form issues at the start of the season - defenders especially. All of them had pay rises in the months prior. That's resolved now but it's another issue that has to be dealt with. And there was Maxwell and his agent... now also dealt with.

 

[Aitch]

And there was Maxwell and his agent... now also dealt with.

For now. It hasn't started well for him at Charlton with him yet to get a game. Think he'll be back in the summer and then we'll have to look to move him on again. Could do with playing though to put himself in the shop window. Sat on Charlton's bench in L1 is hardly good for his CV.

 

[epsilon]

See below. When this happened to NE in 2010, the club was threatened with some form of insolvency procedure. Out of all of the major shareholders, only one was willing to save the club. At the time Hemmings held about 25% of the share ownership.

Amongst the results that his actions brought :
- the club continued to own the ground
- league football continued to be played there

"Bolton Wanderers are set to be issued with a winding-up petition by HM Revenue & Customs.
BBC Radio Manchester reports that a petition by HMRC was filed on 4 February, although no date for a hearing has been made available.
The Championship club has been asked for comment.
Bolton owner Ken Anderson said on Monday that he was in "detailed discussions" with an interested party about the sale of the club.
Last month, Anderson said he was "doing his utmost" to find a buyer amid fan protests."

Bolton winding-up petition filed by HMRC

Bolton Wanderers are to be issued with a winding-up petition by HM Revenue & Customs, reports BBC Radio Manchester.

www.bbc.com

Possibly this needs its own thread. Could get interesting...

 

[Kathryn]

Back to the subject of Uncle Trevor:

During the news report of equine flu outbreak, Mr Hemmings was seen in the background. I wonder if his horses are affected.

 

[Aitch]

Back to the subject of Uncle Trevor:

During the news report of equine flu outbreak, Mr Hemmings was seen in the background. I wonder if his horses are affected.

He has horses with Donald Macain which is the yard that has been identified as being struck down by the outbreak. 6 horses have the flu so there's a good chance Trevor owns some of those

 

[LostinYorkshire]

You can see the money he is putting in as and when it goes in now as all new money goes in as shares, not loans to comply with Financial Fair Play, and share allotments have to be recorded at companies house. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00039494/filing-history

If you look at the allotments of shares you can see this season he has put on new cash of just over £1m on 24 July and £2.15m on 26 September. So that is £3m+ already. I suspect another allotment will be recorded shortly to fund the recent transfers.

I don’t agree with everything he does, or the way he does it, but by god im glad he is doing what he is doing. It’s astonishing that some Fans would rather he wasn’t here! When he does finally pack in, it will be a big wake up call to many. I don’t think they realise how expensive it is to sustain championship football , and the lack of people willing to do so for clubs like us.

The allottment of shares shows the cash injections to the club but you need to look at both PNE Football Club Ltd & PNE Ltd. The allotment of shares is different, allotment of shares to PNE Ltd probably gives the better indication. I think the costs of maintaining the ground, buying the club shop, electric hoardings, etc, etc, are included here.

 

[Baldygit]

See below. When this happened to NE in 2010, the club was threatened with some form of insolvency procedure. Out of all of the major shareholders, only one was willing to save the club. At the time Hemmings held about 25% of the share ownership.

Amongst the results that his actions brought :

• the club continued to own the ground
• league football continued to be played there

"Bolton Wanderers are set to be issued with a winding-up petition by HM Revenue & Customs.
BBC Radio Manchester reports that a petition by HMRC was filed on 4 February, although no date for a hearing has been made available.
The Championship club has been asked for comment.
Bolton owner Ken Anderson said on Monday that he was in "detailed discussions" with an interested party about the sale of the club.
Last month, Anderson said he was "doing his utmost" to find a buyer amid fan protests."

Bolton winding-up petition filed by HMRC

Bolton Wanderers are to be issued with a winding-up petition by HM Revenue & Customs, reports BBC Radio Manchester.

www.bbc.com

Possibly this needs its own thread. Could get interesting...

Do PNE OWN the ground? I always thought it was leased from the council