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Brexit never? Britain can still change its mind, says Article 50 autho

I don’t dispute that the withdrawal agreement was negotiated by ourselves. Things change, we have a new leader. The WA wasn’t passed by Parliament so we didn’t really agree to anything.
The EU have clearly decided it is Remain or WA with no in between.

As bad as the Tories have proved to be, I’m glad you aren’t negotiating.
 
PNEESSEX said:
No Deal wasn't on the table during the referendum
A deal was done including a backstop in the form that our government requested and then negotiated

Pretending that people voted for No Deal won't wash. Despite Raab pretending that this was part of the discussions in 2016, it was shown to be demonstrably false by all fact checking organisations

Demanding something we can't have (a new deal) is like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum when they can't have an ice cream.

As to the Irish issue, people were told pre referendum that this was a massive issue. It was ignored/denied/labelled project fear but turned out to be exactly as predicted. The GFA is an international treaty and we have a government willing to junk it....it doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy im afraid, it just embarrasses me that, once again, English exceptionalism trumps common sense.
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You cite English exceptionalism. Try German exceptionalism or EU exceptionalism when dealing with the rules governing membership of the Eurozone.
Rules bend when people want them to. Negotiations provide solutions when people want them to.
 
Mer5eywhite said:
You cite English exceptionalism. Try German exceptionalism or EU exceptionalism when dealing with the rules governing membership of the Eurozone.
Rules bend when people want them to. Negotiations provide solutions when people want them to.
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For me, exceptionalism is the idea that the UK can somehow stay in the EU and magically cause it to reform.

As for German politicians and exceptionalism - they have benefited immensely from the Euro and still want to impose the German economic model on the EZ, which is generally to their benefit.
 
PNEESSEX said:
No Deal wasn't on the table during the referendum
A deal was done including a backstop in the form that our government requested and then negotiated
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The country voted to Leave..
Nowhere did it say on the ballot paper to Leave ONLY with a negotiated deal..

I'm fine with setting a date and Leaving on that date...as I suspect almost all Leavers are... and to be honest quite a lot of Remainers.

Was talking to a Remainer the other day.. he said "the country voted to Leave and we should Leave.. I didn't vote to Leave but the country decided... and we should get on with it and Leave."

The WA was rejected three times by Parliament.. are you saying the EU has the right to impose that deal on Parliament and the UK ?

I love the way folks like you claim to know what Leavers were thinking when they voted... you certainly don't speak for me !
 
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PNEESSEX said:
No Deal wasn't on the table during the referendum
A deal was done including a backstop in the form that our government requested and then negotiated

Pretending that people voted for No Deal won't wash. Despite Raab pretending that this was part of the discussions in 2016, it was shown to be demonstrably false by all fact checking organisations

Demanding something we can't have (a new deal) is like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum when they can't have an ice cream.

As to the Irish issue, people were told pre referendum that this was a massive issue. It was ignored/denied/labelled project fear but turned out to be exactly as predicted. The GFA is an international treaty and we have a government willing to junk it....it doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy im afraid, it just embarrasses me that, once again, English exceptionalism trumps common sense.
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You could also say a deal wasn’t on the table during the referendum
 
europne said:
Absolutely, of course we can prosper again, back to the great days of the Victorian era when we were truly great. Because it’s gone steadily downhill since.

Let’s get the plebs back into the factories on 6 day weeks with 12 hour shifts.

Let’s get the 12 year olds back to work. Keep the little fukkers off the internet and social media.

Let’s get rid of this expensive benefits shit and that bloody health service, more police and armies to keep the scum in check.

It’s a great idea, I don’t know why I supported remaining now, so much money to be made from the poor.
Let’s get this country great again , I can’t wait.

And let’s get the Invincibles back on top of the league.

It’s the workhouse unfortunately for you Nobber, but none of that euro rights bullshit, get back to some proper suffering, like the good old days.
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That has nothing to do with what he said you complete EuroTit....
 
raefil said:
Modern day slave trade?

Utter wank, the Polish people who live near me are doing very well by getting stuck in and working very hard. Not slaves, they came over here on minimum wage, worked hard they now run around in a Jeep grand cherokee and have bought their own home. Lovely hard working people who are paying their way in our society.

Sick to my back teeth of the Farage and steve Bannon rhetoric spewing from your mouth to attempt to demonise people who have, by their own efforts literally pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.

Slaves my fucking arse
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Open borders haven't created a modern day slave trade? Really?

The Guardian disagrees. The BBC disagrees. There are countless charities offering help for those that are affected. Try google mate and you may find that you have got your blinkers on simply because of your EU love in.

Plus can you please explain how you can purport to be a left wing socialist when ignoring the plight of those being abused?

That’s before we look at the ‘brain drain’ it creates!
 
PNEESSEX said:
English exceptionalism trumps common sense.
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It is the inverted nationalism that gets me.. you openly argue "your felllow countrymen are stupid and flawed" in this odd world you inhabit.. while the EU escapes any criticism and is full of lovely reasonable well meaning types. Who have nothing but peoples interests at heart.. unless you are Greek or don't agree with the EU and then you get what you deserve.

Is this psychological flaw in the English character.. a uniquely English problem ?
 
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Sepp Blatter said:
Fair enough - Strangely, I think I sort of agree with you and also with Slips.

On one side, if there wasn't unrestricted free movement, the UK would have to pay a lot more money for training medical professionals, and also pay higher rates to prevent them from leaving.

On the other side, I largely agree with Slips that many people in the private sector face different pressures - the idea that if you don't accept these shitty conditions and casual working arrangements, we'll find someone who will. Here's your P45.

EDIT: Raef nailed it in his post. The decline of collective bargaining and unions is a large part of the difference.
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The medical professionals born in England now pay for themselves in the form of student debt.
 
Mer5eywhite said:
My stance is this. The people of the UK voted to leave in much the same way the people in Greece elected a government to lead their country. The elected government in Greece might well have been offered terms. Perhaps A combination of some fiscal guarantees with some debts written off. Writing off debt is quite a normal practice. Punishment for unpaid debt is on the other hand rather draconian and a little old fashioned.
The EU chose to go for the draconian method. After all this served two purposes
1. 95% of the money never reached Greece but instead went straight to their banks.
2. The austerity imposed kept Greece in its place until 2054 and discouraged other countries from pursuing a similar course.
At the same time accusations of corruption and incompetence are levelled at the Greeks. Since which time the same EU has appointed leaders who have been incompetent or investigated for corruption in previous posts.

So back to the start. The UK voted to leave and the EU seem to be making this as difficult as possible. After all we wouldn’t want others to do the same would we? We also seem to be getting grief for the Irish issue which is, in my opinion being cynically manipulated but the EU.

This has been done to death but it is rather like an overbearing, controlling husband blaming the wife who wants to leave for the damage that it will do to the kids!
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Indeed - the blatant hypocrisy at every level of the EU is staggering. You can also add that those wagging the finger at Greeks for corruption are just as bloody bad, if not worse!

Going to the posts I made a few pages back about neocolonialism - that is increasingly what it feels like. Exploitation of the weak by the strong - Toryism at its finest :D
 
Nobber said:
Brilliant post and exactly as I see it. Using freedom of movement as a positive for the poorest is a joke. Modern day slave trade to feed the rich. Any socialist/left winger advocating that is deluded at best.
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That's what it really boils down to isn't it?...... Do you know the biggest problem in all this?...."The Comfortable "

Shame on the lot of them that want to stay in for that reason. Doubt many will admit it though.
 
Sepp Blatter said:
Which deters people from entering the profession - but you can make it up by pilfering people from elsewhere!
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EXACTLY MY POINT.

Double bubble for the rich. Don’t pay for training. Get a fully trained professional. Get the debt off anyone here aspiring to be a professional. Everyone wins...

Apart from the country the professional leaves. The family that has to migrate. The student that has a mortgage around their neck. The young kid who cannot aspire to reach their goal.

But hey, open borders is such a super duper positive thing for the socialists. It fucking stinks.

RACE CARD ALERT..........any minute now.......
 
PNEESSEX said:
You wrote: "Unless of course you are fortunate enough to work in a "planned" and unaffected area.. NHS.. Education.. civil service... MP.. EU. "

Trying to pretend theyre unaffected is, to use the technical term, utter bollocks.
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I think that you're playing on the word " unaffected "... They probably are to a small degree but it's hardly likely to be life changing like unemployment is it? Sliper was absolutely correct and you are being pedantic.
 
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