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Operating loss

Even that is unlikely as these players would have to be sold this summer and clubs would know there was a problem and play hard ball. Also deliberately running a business down isn't actually legal in this country.
I didn't say it was likely...……….no way could TH be prosecuted for selling players from a football club that he owns. I would think TH would win any court battle that challenges his right to sell a player. It is a matter of opinion as to whether selling for example Ben Pearson could legally be viewed as "running a business down". Players are sold all the time and always have been to prop up football clubs.
 
No he wouldn't. He could sell players like Pearson, Browne, Johnson, Davies, etc etc and likely recoup a big percentage of the 43 m and just sit back and watch PNE's journey down the divisions until the value of the club drops to such an extent that one of these many prospective buyers that we are all being told about actually exist agrees to pay whatever the club would actually be worth playing in div 1 or 2 or lower. By that time he may even get his 43 m back completely.
So you've seen the secret dossier too. 😮

Shhhh, we're not meant to make it public or too obvious.

Stick with the mantra: "the lure of Premier League football is too great", "we can't stand in the player's way", etc. (y)
 
Stick with the mantra: "the lure of Premier League football is too great", "we can't stand in the player's way", etc. (y)

Only it's more dangerous than ever as we could lose 3/4 players this summer at least.

It will offset our recent losses though, which is why these financial reports really don't mean much. We've always been well run financially, and Trev will get his money back eventually.
 
You were suggesting that he would sell all of the club's good players and see us slide down the leagues, not just selling an odd player or two.
I was suggesting to the people on here that don't recognise a 43m investment to be significant, that if he wished, TH could start to recoup some of the said investment by selling players, which is no different from any other business that was in financial trouble (not that PNE is) who decide to sell off inventory or equipment to stay solvent. What don't you understand about that? I am not saying TH would do that, but it is within his power so to do, and maybe put two fingers up at the "fans" who think he has not invested enough.
Like that has been mentioned earlier, Bolton Wanderers, Portsmouth, Bradford and other clubs have tried to live beyond their means and sooner or later the situation catches up on businesses, Football Clubs, or individuals who decide to live that way. It is called economics.
 
So you've seen the secret dossier too. 😮

Shhhh, we're not meant to make it public or too obvious.

Stick with the mantra: "the lure of Premier League football is too great", "we can't stand in the player's way", etc. (y)
Just in case you didn't realise Thracia (and I don't know how long you have supported PNE), but we have not "stood in the players' way" since the early 1960's when the first big name player (Peter Thompson) was sold to Liverpool for about 40,000 pounds. Look back at our history and you will see many more players sold because the club "did not stand in the players' way". And some were even sold before TH was at the club in any sort of powerful position..........................they were sold to keep the club functioning as a "going concern". Without TH, currently, PNE is not a going concern at the level they are playing at.......................or do you disagree?
 
So, in your mind, Trevor Hemings is ‘ruining’ the club by refusing to sanction the spending of even more money the club clearly hasn’t got and can’t generate, in an attempt to join the other financial lunatics gambling on being one of the 3 from 10 clubs who make the it to the premier league in May?

Which bit of the financial statement in the OP did you not ‘get’? Hemings would ruin the club if he ever decided to call in his debts and walked don’t you think?

Two words you may wish to consider and reflect on before posting further on this subject BOLTON WANDERERS
Ah, the good old Bolton or Bury comment. :sleep::sleep:
 
Just in case you didn't realise Thracia (and I don't know how long you have supported PNE), but we have not "stood in the players' way" since the early 1960's when the first big name player (Peter Thompson) was sold to Liverpool for about 40,000 pounds. Look back at our history and you will see many more players sold because the club "did not stand in the players' way". And some were even sold before TH was at the club in any sort of powerful position..........................they were sold to keep the club functioning as a "going concern". Without TH, currently, PNE is not a going concern at the level they are playing at.......................or do you disagree?
Yes, the accounts are crystal-clear on the matter (cited below) - and entirely consistent with your suggestion that TH could decide on a whim at any time to sell every last player we've got who's worth a scorrock and let us slide down the leagues exactly in the manner you suggested.

So, shhhhhhh, mum's the word, yeah? Remember to say "we won't stand in the player's way", "lure of the Premier League", blame the agents, etc.

The financial statements have been drawn up on a going concern basis, which the directors believe to be appropriate.

The directors acknowledge that, in common with many football clubs in the Championship, the company is likely to incur future losses and net cash outflows.

The company has prepared detailed cash flow forecasts taking account of reasonably possible downsides that show that it has a projected additional cash flow requirement within twelve months of approval of these financial statements of approximately £5,668,000, with further cash requirements subsequent to that period.

As in previous years the forecasts have been prepared on a prudent basis such that a good performance in the league, a player sale, a cup run or increased TV coverage will significantly increase projected income and therefore reduce the projected cash flow requirement. Conversely the club may choose, subject to having sufficient funding in place, to make additional signings in the January and/or August transfer windows if this is considered to be in its best interests and this could increase the projected cash flow requirement.

The ultimate parent company, Deepdale PNE Holdings Limited has indicated its intention to continue to make available such funds as are needed by the company for the period covered by the forecasts. However, the ability of Deepdale PNE Holdings Limited to continue to provide this support is dependent on itself receiving funding from, and non-repayment of existing loans made by, the ultimate shareholder, Mr T.J. Hemmings.

The following disclosure has been made within the ultimate parent company's (Deepdale PNE Holdings Limited) 30 June 2019 group and parent company financial statements regarding its own going concern:

"The parent company is wholly owned and ultimately controlled by the family interests of Mr T.J. Hemmings and the support of the ultimate shareholder has been evident for many years. Support amounting to a £6.690.000 loan was advanced to the group via its intermediate holding company, Grovemoor Limited, during the year to 30 June 2019. Loans provided directly or indirectly by the ultimate controlling party totalled £43,021,000 at 30 June 2019 (20 /8: £36,331, 000) remain outstanding and are callable on demand.


"The group has prepared detailed cash flow forecasts taking account of reasonably possible downsides that show that the group and company have a projected additional cash flow requirement within twelve months of approval of these financial statements of approximately £6.698,000 with further cash requirements subsequent to that period. This assumes that the existing intermediate parent company loan balances, are not called for repayment in that period, and also takes into account funding received after the year end.

"As in previous years the forecasts have been prepared on a prudent basis such that a good performance in the league, a player sale, a cup run or increased TV coverage will significantly increase projected income and therefore reduce the projected cash flow requirement. Conversely the club may choose, subject to having sufficient funding in place, to make additional signings in the January and/or August transfer windows if this is considered to be in its best interests and this could increase the projected cash flow requirement.

"As in previous financial years the group has not sought to secure guaranteed finance to fund its cash flow projections in full for twelve months from the date of approval of these financial statements. given the high level of variables involved and the cost of securing additional facilities that may not be required. Based on discussions with the relevant shareholders and shareholder related parties, the directors are of the view that sufficient additional funds will be available from those parties, and that the company's intermediate parent company will not request repayment of the outstanding loans provided within 12 months from the date of signing these financial statements. As with any company placing reliance on other group entities and shareholders for financial support, the directors acknowledge that there can be no certainty that this support will continue although, at the date of approval of these financial statements, they have no reason to believe that it will not do so.

"After making enquiries and considering the uncertainties described above, the directors have a reasonable expectation that the group and company will have adequate resources to continue in operational existence for the foreseeable future. For these reasons, they continue to adopt the going concern basis in preparing the financial statements. However, the combination of these circumstances indicate the existence of a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt on the group and company's ability to continue as a going concern and therefore the group and
company may be unable to continue to realise their assets and discharge their liabilities in the normal course of business."

Based on these indications, the directors believe that it remains appropriate to prepare the financial statements on a going concern basis. However, the above circumstances represent a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt on the company's ability to continue as a going concern and, therefore, to continue realising its assets and discharging its liabilities in the normal course of business. The financial statements do not include any adjustments that would result from the basis of preparation being inappropriate.
 
Ah, the good old Bolton or Bury comment. :sleep::sleep:
Ah, the good old Bolton or Bury comment. :sleep::sleep:
Have you forgotten the circumstances of how TH actually took over the club? PNEFC could not pay their taxes. So what is it that you don't understand about financial obligations and the need to earn at least as much as what is spent when running a business which is what a football club at this level is?
 
Yes, the accounts are crystal-clear on the matter (cited below) - and entirely consistent with your suggestion that TH could decide on a whim at any time to sell every last player we've got who's worth a scorrock and let us slide down the leagues exactly in the manner you suggested.

So, shhhhhhh, mum's the word, yeah? Remember to say "we won't stand in the player's way", "lure of the Premier League", blame the agents, etc.

The financial statements have been drawn up on a going concern basis, which the directors believe to be appropriate.

The directors acknowledge that, in common with many football clubs in the Championship, the company is likely to incur future losses and net cash outflows.

The company has prepared detailed cash flow forecasts taking account of reasonably possible downsides that show that it has a projected additional cash flow requirement within twelve months of approval of these financial statements of approximately £5,668,000, with further cash requirements subsequent to that period.

As in previous years the forecasts have been prepared on a prudent basis such that a good performance in the league, a player sale, a cup run or increased TV coverage will significantly increase projected income and therefore reduce the projected cash flow requirement. Conversely the club may choose, subject to having sufficient funding in place, to make additional signings in the January and/or August transfer windows if this is considered to be in its best interests and this could increase the projected cash flow requirement.

The ultimate parent company, Deepdale PNE Holdings Limited has indicated its intention to continue to make available such funds as are needed by the company for the period covered by the forecasts. However, the ability of Deepdale PNE Holdings Limited to continue to provide this support is dependent on itself receiving funding from, and non-repayment of existing loans made by, the ultimate shareholder, Mr T.J. Hemmings.

The following disclosure has been made within the ultimate parent company's (Deepdale PNE Holdings Limited) 30 June 2019 group and parent company financial statements regarding its own going concern:

"The parent company is wholly owned and ultimately controlled by the family interests of Mr T.J. Hemmings and the support of the ultimate shareholder has been evident for many years. Support amounting to a £6.690.000 loan was advanced to the group via its intermediate holding company, Grovemoor Limited, during the year to 30 June 2019. Loans provided directly or indirectly by the ultimate controlling party totalled £43,021,000 at 30 June 2019 (20 /8: £36,331, 000) remain outstanding and are callable on demand.


"The group has prepared detailed cash flow forecasts taking account of reasonably possible downsides that show that the group and company have a projected additional cash flow requirement within twelve months of approval of these financial statements of approximately £6.698,000 with further cash requirements subsequent to that period. This assumes that the existing intermediate parent company loan balances, are not called for repayment in that period, and also takes into account funding received after the year end.

"As in previous years the forecasts have been prepared on a prudent basis such that a good performance in the league, a player sale, a cup run or increased TV coverage will significantly increase projected income and therefore reduce the projected cash flow requirement. Conversely the club may choose, subject to having sufficient funding in place, to make additional signings in the January and/or August transfer windows if this is considered to be in its best interests and this could increase the projected cash flow requirement.

"As in previous financial years the group has not sought to secure guaranteed finance to fund its cash flow projections in full for twelve months from the date of approval of these financial statements. given the high level of variables involved and the cost of securing additional facilities that may not be required. Based on discussions with the relevant shareholders and shareholder related parties, the directors are of the view that sufficient additional funds will be available from those parties, and that the company's intermediate parent company will not request repayment of the outstanding loans provided within 12 months from the date of signing these financial statements. As with any company placing reliance on other group entities and shareholders for financial support, the directors acknowledge that there can be no certainty that this support will continue although, at the date of approval of these financial statements, they have no reason to believe that it will not do so.

"After making enquiries and considering the uncertainties described above, the directors have a reasonable expectation that the group and company will have adequate resources to continue in operational existence for the foreseeable future. For these reasons, they continue to adopt the going concern basis in preparing the financial statements. However, the combination of these circumstances indicate the existence of a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt on the group and company's ability to continue as a going concern and therefore the group and
company may be unable to continue to realise their assets and discharge their liabilities in the normal course of business."

Based on these indications, the directors believe that it remains appropriate to prepare the financial statements on a going concern basis. However, the above circumstances represent a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt on the company's ability to continue as a going concern and, therefore, to continue realising its assets and discharging its liabilities in the normal course of business. The financial statements do not include any adjustments that would result from the basis of preparation being inappropriate.
I am not reading all that...…..I have a life to live...………..do you or do you not agree that PNE for the last 60+ years (whether TH has been in charge or not) have consistently had to sell players to meet their financial obligations? A simple yes or no will suffice.

To avoid any heavy thinking by you on this subject, I will provide the answer for you...............…it is yes. Subject closed.
 
There are people who are very good at spending other people’s money. That Hemmings is prepared to take losses is a bonus. Without this willingness we would be in the lower leagues for a long time indeed. Others here have mentioned financially impecunious clubs. I personally do not want our club to go down the loading itself with debt route.
 
That's an eye opener. Unless wages are brought down in the long term, many football clubs will be going down(wards) and out of business. How can you have a business that pays £143 in wages for every £100 of revenue. The premier leagues created this situation.

Not £500,000 a year, £500,000 a week... for playing football. Plus bonuses and perks. Sorry but it's sick and twisted in my book.

Well IF the figures are True

I would like to know how he is doing that under the 'fair play' rules
It seem to me not much different than what the Man City Owners are doing for their Club and the trouble that is causing

Could one way be by buying up all the unfilled seats at matches I wonder, that could be regarded as Income even if The Owners were actually paying for them
 
Hemmings can't 'call in his debts and walk' as you call it. If the club is losing money without his input then there will be nothing for him to call for, so he will lose all of his investment.
TH can do whatever he wants can’t he? 43 million would be little more than an irritation to him I would think but PNE having a future is important to us.

I mention BWFC because the situation we have is very similar to the one Bolton had with Eddie Davies only less in scale. Davies kept pouring money into a pit of crazy spending until he decided enough was enough. He wrote off his personal loans .... just like TH could ... and unloaded the whole lot to a succession of leaches with the result we can all see for ourselves. If you wish to align yourself with the wisdom of ‘Spender’ then good luck to you.
PS, I have no clue what you mean by giving us Burnley. They are not bust like BWFC were and they don’t live beyond their means.. do they?
 
I am not reading all that...…..I have a life to live...………..do you or do you not agree that PNE for the last 60+ years (whether TH has been in charge or not) have consistently had to sell players to meet their financial obligations? A simple yes or no will suffice.

To avoid any heavy thinking by you on this subject, I will provide the answer for you...............…it is yes. Subject closed.
I'm simply quoting a legal document, published today, that confirms TH has the right to sell every single player we've got from under us if he so desires.

You don't seem to want to acknowledge that fact.

That's good - it's good to see you're back on-message. (y)

Always blame the agents/Premier League/something else, whenever anyone talks about ruthlessly stripping the club's playing assets at the whim of the owner... (y)
 
Oh and while you are shouting Bolton I'll see you with Burnley
It has been discussed several times on here that during the initial season that Burnley got promotion to the prem that had they failed, they would have been in serious financial trouble as they had gambled millions in the hope the gamble would succeed. Just because one owner decides to risk his football club's future, I see no reason why TH should also go down that route.
 
There are people who are very good at spending other people’s money. That Hemmings is prepared to take losses is a bonus. Without this willingness we would be in the lower leagues for a long time indeed. Others here have mentioned financially impecunious clubs. I personally do not want our club to go down the loading itself with debt route.
but we're already in £43 million debt?
 
but we're already in £43 million debt?
An interest-free loan to yourself is not really a debt, except possibly for tax purposes.

Similarly a "loss" which is actually an interest-free loan to yourself is not really a "loss" - except possibly for tax purposes.
 
Amazing how the club release these figures in the wake of the u restore the training ground fiasco.
The plot at North End is bitter and twisted but I reckon TH and his companies are using the club as much as we have ever used him.
 
An interest-free loan to yourself is not really a debt, except possibly for tax purposes.

Similarly a "loss" which is actually an interest-free loan to yourself is not really a "loss" - except possibly for tax purposes.
sure, but in the context of Madferret's post, the club is insolvent without TH's loans. And in the absence of making a profit, we rely lock, stock & barrel on the big man and are already massively 'in debt' already. So it's not as if further investment would make us go down the 'loading itself with debt route'. We're already there.
 
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