Another Defector for UKIP

sliper

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Im not in the frenzy of thinking we must leave the EU, Im not convinced its the best thing thing for this country. However, I believe that it should be put to a vote and am for a referendum. the labour party need to rethink their policy on this one, give the vote and then use debate to convince people as to the reasons they should vote to stay in.

Agree.. But I think it will take a big UKIP vote to convince Labour to change its stance. The end game for me would be a reformed EU closer to the old common market. I think the only way to achieve that is to convince the Germans it's going to fall apart without reform.
 

norks

Youth Team
Agree.. But I think it will take a big UKIP vote to convince Labour to change its stance. The end game for me would be a reformed EU closer to the old common market. I think the only way to achieve that is to convince the Germans it's going to fall apart without reform.

I actually think we need to get out of the EU, but I don't share farages slap dash approach to it. He basically wants to pull out and pray. Without any kind of industry who the fuck would we trade with? We know he's a super Tory and a massive Thatcherite so he's hardly going to support any kind if industy, except that of the financial sector, leaving a select group of the population (London and surrounding areas) benefiting from this, and the rest of the country will be on the breadline.

If we are to leave we need a exit plan, agreed by all members of parliament that we stick to for the next 10 years, regardless of who is in government. We'd need to develope manufacturing and concentrate on specialising in new technologies. When we are a power house again, simply bow out.
 

Guinness

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Further proof that opposition to the EU is not just happening on the right of politics. Very interesting that she says that most folks in the shadow cabinet of the Labour Party want a referendum. Who is blocking it ?

Men in grey suits who stand in the shadows!
 
OP
6pence

6pence

Youth Team
Sorry I don't understand? Unless you are trying to say the Tories are a party renowned for supporting the working class? He's an ex Tory himself and taking ex Tories?

What policies are UKIP supporting that will help the working class?

Indeed, though this one at least came from the Labour Party.

How anyone can vote for the Tories with red roses is beyond me :)
 

PNEESSEX

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Indeed, though this one at least came from the Labour Party.

How anyone can vote for the Tories with red roses is beyond me :)

I can't imagine why, or how, anyone could vote for orange tinged Tories.....:)

There are plenty of people of my generation who would rather chew their own arms off than have a Tory government, I know I would. That's because I lived through the Thatcher years and witnessed at first hand the vindictive side of Tory politicians.

Back to UKIP- I note there's a programme on the UKIPpers on BBC2 on Sunday. I'm sure that'll have all the UKIP supporters spluttering and demanding the destruction of the BBC.
 
OP
6pence

6pence

Youth Team
I can't imagine why, or how, anyone could vote for orange tinged Tories.....:)

There are plenty of people of my generation who would rather chew their own arms off than have a Tory government, I know I would. That's because I lived through the Thatcher years and witnessed at first hand the vindictive side of Tory politicians.

Back to UKIP- I note there's a programme on the UKIPpers on BBC2 on Sunday. I'm sure that'll have all the UKIP supporters spluttering and demanding the destruction of the BBC.

Well they would do well not to vote in a Tory chancellor in May ;)

Nothing wrong with believing in a small government, just unfortunate that the Tories have gone a little bit too far when it comes to creating opportunities for individuals. Sliper will say more about that.
 

sliper

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I actually think we need to get out of the EU, but I don't share farages slap dash approach to it. He basically wants to pull out and pray. Without any kind of industry who the fuck would we trade with? We know he's a super Tory and a massive Thatcherite so he's hardly going to support any kind if industy, except that of the financial sector, leaving a select group of the population (London and surrounding areas) benefiting from this, and the rest of the country will be on the breadline.

I watched Douglas Carswell on Ch4's political slot.. I suggest folks watch it. I really couldn't disagree with much that he said.. He talked about Britain being stitched up by big business cartels and how this impacted on the poorest in society.. And this is why he had left the Tories. He wanted genuine competition, I believe him.

It's too easy in my opinion to dismiss UKIP as a racist right wing party, as usual I think the truth is more complex than that. I think they are getting support from the small business sector and outlining policies that could do just what you and I want.

Let's face left wing politics has failed to outline a working alternative to neo liberalism..
For me a lot I hear from UKIP sounds like old fashioned pro business conservatism.
 

norks

Youth Team
I watched Douglas Carswell on Ch4's political slot.. I suggest folks watch it. I really couldn't disagree with much that he said.. He talked about Britain being stitched up by big business cartels and how this impacted on the poorest in society.. And this is why he had left the Tories. He wanted genuine competition, I believe him.

It's too easy in my opinion to dismiss UKIP as a racist right wing party, as usual I think the truth is more complex than that. I think they are getting support from the small business sector and outlining policies that could do just what you and I want.

Let's face left wing politics has failed to outline a working alternative to neo liberalism..
For me a lot I hear from UKIP sounds like old fashioned pro business conservatism.

thanks for the info, i'll have a look see. I know what you mean as to become a leading country in manufacturing and trade you need to either

A) be able to do it cheap, i.e no worker rights or minimum wage and banning unions.

B) have a patented technology/product with highly superior trained workers. A good example of something like this would be graphene production (which was developed in manc) which is going to be something used in everything soon.

out of those two choices, which do you think farage would support?
 

sliper

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I don't know the answer to that. But I share your vision.
I personally suspect that Farage is reasserting those values that Britain had prior to
Lisbon. CertainlY nationalist but this really doesn't fit with globalisation, The fact that this is presented in the media as right wing and racist.. Makes me
Think they are seen as a threat to the corporatist agenda. Of course
I could be wrong but the more I read the more I suspect it to be
True.

The one that the left stays away from.. Is that wages are static
As a direct result of open borders.. And an unlimited pool of foreign labour.

I think there is struggle going on.. It's no longer between left and right.
But between finance and the corporate agenda against old style advocates of free speech and economic pluralism. Cardwell strikes me as politician of rare conviction.

I think events at the Telegraph sort of bear this out.
 
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raefil

Shit Fan
Patron
I don't know the answer to that. But I share your vision.
I personally feel that Farage is reasserting those values that Britain had prior to
Lisbon.

The one that the left stays away from.. Is that wages are static
As a direct result of open borders.. And an unlimited pool of foreign labour.

I think there is struggle going on.. It's no longer between left and right.
But between finance and the corporates against old style advocates of free speech and economic pluralism

I think events at the Telegraph bear this out
.
You make a lot of sense, sliper.
 

Sepp Blatter

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I don't know the answer to that. But I share your vision.
I personally feel that Farage is reasserting those values that Britain had prior to
Lisbon.

The one that the left stays away from.. Is that wages are static
As a direct result of open borders.. And an unlimited pool of foreign labour.

I think there is struggle going on.. It's no longer between left and right.
But between finance and the corporates against old style advocates of free speech and economic pluralism

I think events at the Telegraph bear this out.

Good post, Sliper - I also believe that the old left-right spectrum is disappearing (not before time). Political movements and protests across Europe also support this, IMO.
 

norks

Youth Team
I don't know the answer to that. But I share your vision.
I personally suspect that Farage is reasserting those values that Britain had prior to
Lisbon. CertainlY nationalist but this really doesn't fit with globalisation, The fact that this is presented in the media as right wing and racist.. Makes me
Think they are seen as a threat to the corporatist agenda. Of course
I could be wrong but the more I read the more I suspect it to be
True.

The one that the left stays away from.. Is that wages are static
As a direct result of open borders.. And an unlimited pool of foreign labour.

I think there is struggle going on.. It's no longer between left and right.
But between finance and the corporate agenda against old style advocates of free speech and economic pluralism. Cardwell strikes me as politician of rare conviction.

I think events at the Telegraph sort of bear this out.

I agree, but regardless of the smears of racism and the actual instances of homophobia /bigotry from his councillors, he still wants to pull out immediately with seemingly no plan.

call me a sceptic, but as a ex city banker, I can't see him stimulating any kind of industry other than financial industry let alone ring-fence it.

immigration does need tightening but it's the least of our worries i think.

lets say somehow he got into power and was able to pull out of the EU. Due to not being in the EU rich boys trading club, to compete with both the EU and global traders he'd need to create an economic model that puts business success/profit and cost in front of human and working rights.

Ironically for the people who felt their jobs were/are being stolen, this would probably mean:

no unions
no strikes
could be fired on the spot with no appeal
could have minimum holiday decreased
could have maximum working hours increased
reduced health and safety
no sick pay if you get injured
blacklisting on building/trade sites
no minimum wage which would mean lower wages for the guys complaining about immigrants taking their jobs by undercutting them.

sure you'd agree that's not a pretty picture i just painted.
 
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raefil

Shit Fan
Patron
Good post, Sliper - I also believe that the old left-right spectrum is disappearing (not before time). Political movements and protests across Europe also support this, IMO.

An interesting article in the spectator asking if the German bullying tactics, towards Greece, is about to spectacularly backfire?

Germany wants nothing less than an unconditional surrender from the new Greek government. It is hard to draw any other conclusion from Berlin’s decision to reject Greece’s proposal for a six month extension of the current bailout, which counted as an almost total climb-down by the Syriza-led government. But it seems that the Germans—with an eye on the Spanish elections later this year —want to show that voting for radical, anti-austerity parties gets you absolutely nothing.

However, the Germans may well have miscalculated. The Greek Finance Minister wants Greece to leave the euro but, because the vast majority of Greeks wants to stay in the single currency, he has had to stop agitating for that. But, by refusing to acknowledge that the Greek election has any consequences at all, Berlin is making it far easier for Greeks to start making the case that they really have no choice but to leave.

Now so far, there has been no contagion effect from the latest Greek crisis—Spain is still borrowing at roughly the same rates as before. Yet, it is a mighty risk to imagine that the markets would react calmly to Greece leaving the Euro but if Germany continues in this uncompromising manner that is what it

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...ro/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
 

Sepp Blatter

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An interesting article in the spectator asking if the German bullying tactics, towards Greece, is about to spectacularly backfire?



http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...ro/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

You would hope so, but they always seem to come up smelling of roses.

If Syriza fail to persuade the Germans to ease up on austerity and encourage growth alongside the reforms, I fear for the future. I would not rule out Golden Dawn at the next election if things do not improve - desperate people will do desperate things.

A lesson that Merkel and Schauble should know all too well, considering German history between the wars, but we are not supposed to talk about that :)
 

Liberation

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I agree, but regardless of the smears of racism and the actual instances of homophobia /bigotry from his councillors, he still wants to pull out immediately with seemingly no plan.

call me a sceptic, but as a ex city banker, I can't see him stimulating any kind of industry other than financial industry let alone ring-fence it.

immigration does need tightening but it's the least of our worries i think.

lets say somehow he got into power and was able to pull out of the EU. Due to not being in the EU rich boys trading club, to compete with both the EU and global traders he'd need to create an economic model that puts business success/profit and cost in front of human and working rights.

Ironically for the people who felt their jobs were/are being stolen, this would probably mean:

no unions
no strikes
could be fired on the spot with no appeal
could have minimum holiday decreased
could have maximum working hours increased
reduced health and safety
no sick pay if you get injured
blacklisting on building/trade sites
no minimum wage which would mean lower wages for the guys complaining about immigrants taking their jobs by undercutting them.

sure you'd agree that's not a pretty picture i just painted.

Do you actually believe that we have all those wonderful things in place because of the EU ?....... In fact do you actually believe that they are in place at all and are effective ?.......... Don't know where you work my friend but it's not where I work.

And you should have left out H AND S altogether because it's become a massive comfort zone industry controlled by complete monkeys that aren't very good at anything else and actually hinders productivity and growth... Rather like the EU itself.
 
OP
6pence

6pence

Youth Team
I am working on the fact that norks thinks that those things would be eroded by a UKIP government.

However, I am sure that the point with UKIP is not that they will form the next government but that their support will wake up Labour into actually offering the referendum.

Worth also saying the gap between Labour and Tories is not as large as it perhaps should be, so many of those things Norks mentioned are either there (or threatened) whichever of the big two is in power.
 

Liberation

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I am working on the fact that norks thinks that those things would be eroded by a UKIP government.

However, I am sure that the point with UKIP is not that they will form the next government but that their support will wake up Labour into actually offering the referendum.

Worth also saying the gap between Labour and Tories is not as large as it perhaps should be, so many of those things Norks mentioned are either there (or threatened) whichever of the big two is in power.


How do you erode almost impotent Unions ( that have become money lenders ) that haven't the power to strike anyway?.... Well " hardly " the power anyway.

Minimum wage is a complete fallacy as is sick pay

My point is that you can't erode something that you haven't got.... And believe me out there in the real world MANY haven't got it........ Norks has been reading too many Queensbury rule books methinks and is oblivious to how those rules are manipulated and ignored...
 

sliper

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Patron
I agree, but regardless of the smears of racism and the actual instances of homophobia /bigotry from his councillors, he still wants to pull out immediately with seemingly no plan.

call me a sceptic, but as a ex city banker, I can't see him stimulating any kind of industry other than financial industry let alone ring-fence it.

immigration does need tightening but it's the least of our worries i think.

lets say somehow he got into power and was able to pull out of the EU. Due to not being in the EU rich boys trading club, to compete with both the EU and global traders he'd need to create an economic model that puts business success/profit and cost in front of human and working rights.

Ironically for the people who felt their jobs were/are being stolen, this would probably mean:

no unions
no strikes
could be fired on the spot with no appeal
could have minimum holiday decreased
could have maximum working hours increased
reduced health and safety
no sick pay if you get injured
blacklisting on building/trade sites
no minimum wage which would mean lower wages for the guys complaining about immigrants taking their jobs by undercutting them.

sure you'd agree that's not a pretty picture i just painted.

I'm not anti immigration I think open door immigration is damaging, and contributes to wages being forced down. I want controlled immigration.

Personally I don't think UKIP have any chance of getting into power.

I'm also wary they will pull a LibDem and prop up a minority Tory government.
But against this the party has a local selection policy that makes it more likely local business people views will be represented. It seems to me it is much harder to parachute corporate lawyers and clones into safe seats with the UKIP system of selection. What you don't get is people who have been drilled into saying only political acceptable things but then get into power as yes men.

While the picture you paint isn't attractive continuing the current economics isn't attractive either. With immigration restricted to areas of need I believe wages for the lowest paid would start to rise again.. Due to the basic laws of supply and demand.

I'm not really a UKIP supporter.. I'm similar to the lady in the OP. I want reform of the EU or to leave. I make a point of reading and listening to UKIP people beyond the headlines, I'm looking for signs of genuine xenophobia becoming the driver of policy. Because I'd end my interest there and then. But the facts seem to me to be different. Farage is married to a German and I regularly see ethnics standing as candidates. Of course UKIP might be presenting this image but I'm not convinced they are that well organised or savy to present this image regularly, they haven't even put together a proper manifesto yet.

Carswell spoke quite passionately about braking up cartels and monopolies like the energy companies and I would welcome that.

I regularly feel on examination that they are being deliberately being misrepresented by the mainstream media who want more than anything to preserve the economic status quo.. That means fewer people getting more of the wealth
 
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