Are the players over-coached?

Staffordwhite

Advisor to the Owner
I know the game’s moved on, but talking to Mike Elwiss for NES2, he recalled how Harry Catterick gave him instruction after instruction about what he should do in all sorts of situations.

Mike said that when he got on the ball, he couldn’t play his natural game and was trying to remember what he was supposed to be doing according to Harry’s instructions.

As such, he got caught in two minds and ended up doing nothing. After a few games, he knocked it on the head, nodded politely to the manager then ignored him and went back to playing his ‘normal game’ ie - scoring goals. :)

I think the same when I see some of our lads now. They look as if they are so well-drilled, any flair or spontaneity is taken away from them and their first thought is ‘now, what am I supposed to do here?’.

They’ll also have seen our only genuine flair player (Harrop) is benched, seemingly for not following orders. :(

Cracked me up at Luton last week when Bodin and Stockley were delayed coming on because they were getting instructions - in the 89th minute.:unsure:

How about ‘Quick! You two! Get out there and score a bloody goal!’

Isn’t it time, especially given our run of results, for AN to drop the ‘tactical genius’ approach and get back to letting these lads just play?
 
I know the game’s moved on, but talking to Mike Elwiss for NES2, he recalled how Harry Catterick gave him instruction after instruction about what he should do in all sorts of situations.

Mike said that when he got on the ball, he couldn’t play his natural game and was trying to remember what he was supposed to be doing according to Harry’s instructions.

As such, he got caught in two minds and ended up doing nothing. After a few games, he knocked it on the head, nodded politely to the manager then ignored him and went back to playing his ‘normal game’ ie - scoring goals. :)

I think the same when I see some of our lads now. They look as if they are so well-drilled, any flair or spontaneity is taken away from them and their first thought is ‘now, what am I supposed to do here?’.

They’ll also have seen our only genuine flair player (Harrop) is benched, seemingly for not following orders. :(

Cracked me up at Luton last week when Bodin and Stockley were delayed coming on because they were getting instructions - in the 89th minute.:unsure:

How about ‘Quick! You two! Get out there and score a bloody goal!’

Isn’t it time, especially given our run of results, for AN to drop the ‘tactical genius’ approach and get back to letting these lads just play?
Certainly think there is an element of this. If Neil made his subs earlier, there's no reason to not give a complex set of instructions, but perhaps there's also an argument is to let those players simply play their best game - thinking about Harrop (flair) and Sinclair (tracking back isn't his strength).
 

ZeusHam

Manager
I know the game’s moved on, but talking to Mike Elwiss for NES2, he recalled how Harry Catterick gave him instruction after instruction about what he should do in all sorts of situations.

Mike said that when he got on the ball, he couldn’t play his natural game and was trying to remember what he was supposed to be doing according to Harry’s instructions.

As such, he got caught in two minds and ended up doing nothing. After a few games, he knocked it on the head, nodded politely to the manager then ignored him and went back to playing his ‘normal game’ ie - scoring goals. :)

I think the same when I see some of our lads now. They look as if they are so well-drilled, any flair or spontaneity is taken away from them and their first thought is ‘now, what am I supposed to do here?’.

They’ll also have seen our only genuine flair player (Harrop) is benched, seemingly for not following orders. :(

Cracked me up at Luton last week when Bodin and Stockley were delayed coming on because they were getting instructions - in the 89th minute.:unsure:

How about ‘Quick! You two! Get out there and score a bloody goal!’

Isn’t it time, especially given our run of results, for AN to drop the ‘tactical genius’ approach and get back to letting these lads just play?
Abso-fucking-lutely. Good post, I agree totally.
 

Barry Siddall

Youth Team
The five minutes of instructions for subs seems to be the modern way in the game, first properly noticed it during Westley's time and it seems like it's here for the foreseeable future.

I'd argue that we are overcoaching but it's not just the strikers but ever single player. How many times has hunts been dropped over the years for a "ball playing centre half" who can start our attacks when the natural instinct in a defender is to get rid of the bloody thing.
 
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The five minutes of instructions for subs seems to be the modern way in the game, first properly noticed it during Westley's time and it seems like it's here for the foreseeable future.

I'd argue that we are overcoaching but it's not just the strikers but ever single player. How many times has hunts been dropped over the years for a "ball playing centre half" who can start our attacks when the natural instinct in a defender is to get rid of the bloody thing.
I'm still scratching my head over going 4-4-2 and scoring, then going back to 4-5-1 and conceding 2. Surely pressing on with momentum would've been the better option?
 
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Tino

Forum Patron
Patron
I've been saying this for a while, to me it's evident that when things need changing or things aren't going well the players struggle to make that change. And I think that is because they've been drilled that much in the 'normal' formation and style of 4231.

I'm also not sure the drinks breaks are helping us.
 

cragtek

Forum Patron
Patron
Agree.

I think the same could be said of all football nowadays. It seems everything's about "phases" and "transitions", recognising patterns of play, knowing what each player should be thinking of doing next if situation A, B, C, D, E occurs. It's a lot for players to think about.... must suck a lot of the fun out of the game!

AN obviously layers a lot of instructions on top of that. When you look back to when we were at our most successful under him, it was when he started just making us an outright attacking team, moving fluidly, getting the ball up quickly, hunting in packs to get the ball back. Situation A.

B, C, D, E, F, G.... probably not needed!
 

TB1

Reserve
I know the game’s moved on, but talking to Mike Elwiss for NES2, he recalled how Harry Catterick gave him instruction after instruction about what he should do in all sorts of situations.

Mike said that when he got on the ball, he couldn’t play his natural game and was trying to remember what he was supposed to be doing according to Harry’s instructions.

As such, he got caught in two minds and ended up doing nothing. After a few games, he knocked it on the head, nodded politely to the manager then ignored him and went back to playing his ‘normal game’ ie - scoring goals. :)

I think the same when I see some of our lads now. They look as if they are so well-drilled, any flair or spontaneity is taken away from them and their first thought is ‘now, what am I supposed to do here?’.

They’ll also have seen our only genuine flair player (Harrop) is benched, seemingly for not following orders. :(

Cracked me up at Luton last week when Bodin and Stockley were delayed coming on because they were getting instructions - in the 89th minute.:unsure:

How about ‘Quick! You two! Get out there and score a bloody goal!’

Isn’t it time, especially given our run of results, for AN to drop the ‘tactical genius’ approach and get back to letting these lads just play?
I had the same thought while reading NES2. They can sometimes over complicate the game, the players should have an idea of each others capabilities, so just let them play with a bit of freedom.
 

pne1881

Manager
I think it's a mix of that & that AN doesn't let them play their natural game.

I go back to Sinclair again who looks as if he's forgotten how to beat a man. He gets in so many dangerous positions including 1 on 1's & he's too scared (if that's the right word) to commit & take him on.

He's been a wide player / attacker his whole career so he knows how to get past people so what's changed since he's come to us? Appreciate you could say he's relatively new & is just getting used to what we do but for me the answer only lies in one place.
 

pne1881

Manager
I had the same thought while reading NES2. They can sometimes over complicate the game, the players should have an idea of each others capabilities, so just let them play with a bit of freedom.
I'm not sure that happens much under any manager anymore but it certainly won't happen under ours.
 

diggerb

Forum Patron
Patron
I think it's a mix of that & that AN doesn't let them play their natural game.

I go back to Sinclair again who looks as if he's forgotten how to beat a man. He gets in so many dangerous positions including 1 on 1's & he's too scared (if that's the right word) to commit & take him on.

He's been a wide player / attacker his whole career so he knows how to get past people so what's changed since he's come to us? Appreciate you could say he's relatively new & is just getting used to what we do but for me the answer only lies in one place.
You are spot on, but his tracking back is much improved !!!!
 
I've been saying this for a while, to me it's evident that when things need changing or things aren't going well the players struggle to make that change. And I think that is because they've been drilled that much in the 'normal' formation and style of 4231.

I'm also not sure the drinks breaks are helping us.
Hard agree - feels like it's an opportunity to throw another set of overly confusing instructions into the mix, or a chance for the opposition to get instructions to their side as and when they've sussed out AN's game plan.
 

norfolk white

Moderator
Staff member
Patron
I was thinking a similar thing on Saturday i.e. for the first half let them off the leash, play their natural game and enjoy themselves and see what happens. If things are not working then change it for the second half.
 

pne1881

Manager
You are spot on, but his tracking back is much improved !!!!
Exactly & that's the point!

I heard him say earlier in the season about Harrop & how they were working on the defensive side of his game etc so he might've well as said "I won't play him as he doesn't do the defensive stuff".

Get the team set up so the defensive players do the defensive stuff & let the attackers go & create. As the OP says it's not rocket science surely.
 

26-0

Advisor to the Owner
I think it's a mix of that & that AN doesn't let them play their natural game.

I go back to Sinclair again who looks as if he's forgotten how to beat a man. He gets in so many dangerous positions including 1 on 1's & he's too scared (if that's the right word) to commit & take him on.

He's been a wide player / attacker his whole career so he knows how to get past people so what's changed since he's come to us? Appreciate you could say he's relatively new & is just getting used to what we do but for me the answer only lies in one place.
Absolutely.

He seemed a very exciting signing at the time, the crucial piece of the jigsaw to create and score plenty of goals and propel us upwards. Now it seems we could have just saved the money and had a far less skilful player to perform his “tracking back, deep-lying role” as AN plays him as a second left back virtually almost completely nullifying the threat he should be posing in attack.

Seems sometimes that AN makes life far too easy for the opposition.

I don’t expect on Wednesday to see Rooney deployed deep inside his own half for most of the match covering the full backs. But our “star” player will be performing that role sadly.
 

Tino

Forum Patron
Patron
I'm actually struggling at the moment to work out what our actual style of play is and what tactics we're employing.

We rarely see anyone getting to the by line to put crosses in, our full backs don't overlap the wingers, our striker is often isolated, there are no real partnerships developing anywhere on the pitch (Bauer and Davies did look good but we're shipping far too many goals now), there's no step overs or dummies or runs in behind the opposition defence.

Our players look too far apart when attacking, there's no hard passes into feet from wide.

Our set pieces are predictable, when was the last time we saw anything that was out of the ordinary set piece wise?

I'm struggling, are we just playing for set pieces or a bit of magic from DJ?
 

pne1881

Manager
Absolutely.

He seemed a very exciting signing at the time, the crucial piece of the jigsaw to create and score plenty of goals and propel us upwards. Now it seems we could have just saved the money and had a far less skilful player to perform his “tracking back, deep-lying role” as AN plays him as a second left back virtually almost completely nullifying the threat he should be posing in attack.

Seems sometimes that AN makes life far too easy for the opposition.

I don’t expect on Wednesday to see Rooney deployed deep inside his own half for most of the match covering the full backs. But our “star” player will be performing that role sadly.
I have to say SS in particular is driving me nuts with his negativity if you want to call it that but I can't help feeling I should be more angry with what he is being told to do rather than the player himself.
 
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