Are the players over-coached?

pne1881

Manager
I saw a lot of criticism towards Stockley, yet he had so little to feed off.

Where are the players even attempting to get to the byline to get a cross into the 6 yard area?

Players seem reluctant to even just put their heads down and make a run at goal.

I think it was on another thread, and I agreed, that we used to see the gaffer throwing water bottles around when we went backwards now it appears that we are playing backwards more often than not.

This has been a gradual thing since this team hit the top 2 earlier in the season. Fear has definitely crept in.
Agree.

I don't mind Stockley, he works hard enough & does his best with what little service he gets but I think there's not much doubt overall he isn't really Championship standard.
 

Kathryn

Advisor to the Owner
We need at least one, maybe two or three players who can and will do the unexpected. Nugent in his first spell, Fuller, McGeady, players like that. As people have already said, we’ve become too predictable and opponents can plan for that.
 

Huzeifa

Advisor to AN
Patron
We need at least one, maybe two or three players who can and will do the unexpected. Nugent in his first spell, Fuller, McGeady, players like that. As people have already said, we’ve become too predictable and opponents can plan for that.
Forget the players, the manager needs to do the unexpected or allow the players to play to their strengths instead of writing a new testament for them!!
 
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justinr73

Forum Patron
Patron
Agree.

I think the same could be said of all football nowadays. It seems everything's about "phases" and "transitions", recognising patterns of play, knowing what each player should be thinking of doing next if situation A, B, C, D, E occurs. It's a lot for players to think about.... must suck a lot of the fun out of the game!
Someone like Joe Schmidt in Rugby would be good example of that kind of coach and he took Ireland to the top of the world rankings.

Rugby players tend to be brighter than footballers though.
 

kbd_pne

Forum Patron
Patron
Agreed.

When it's Bielsa doing it it's different which is why Leeds have done so well this season.

Neil overcoaches and is excessively negative.

Also consider Pep, to paraphrase he can only coach the first two thirds of play, the rest is on the players. Neil overcoaches all 3 thirds from my view.
Pep doesn’t leave the players to do whatever they like in the final third. That’s a myth. Their movements and phases of play in attack are clearly very well-coached and planned.

Same with Liverpool and the positions their front 3 take up, which then allows their full backs to bomb forward.

There are a probably a few reasons why we’ve been struggling for goals for so long but the main one is a total lack of quality in most of our personnel.

All of our strikers are shocking and they are the worst set of strikers in the division. Only one of our full backs can get forward. We are massively reliant on midfielders and wide players to create and score.
 

Motion Man

First Team
It’s a bit concerning that AN did’t seem to think there was much wrong with saturday’s display. I however saw our side sadly lacking in confidence, formulaic and no real creativity. Apart from the fist 5/10 mins it was only after we went 1 down that for a short spell with 2 up top we looked dangerous. After we scored normal drudgery was resumed. No easy solution to get that confidence back but the management should at least acknowledge that the last few games, pre and post lockdown have shown we’re way off and changes need to be made.
 

pne_monster

Manager
It’s a bit concerning that AN did’t seem to think there was much wrong with saturday’s display. I however saw our side sadly lacking in confidence, formulaic and no real creativity. Apart from the fist 5/10 mins it was only after we went 1 down that for a short spell with 2 up top we looked dangerous. After we scored normal drudgery was resumed. No easy solution to get that confidence back but the management should at least acknowledge that the last few games, pre and post lockdown have shown we’re way off and changes need to be made.
This is one of the two things that really bother me at the moment. That he can’t see anything wrong, or refuses to acknowledge it. Either way it’s concerning. The other is our transfer strategy, but that’s for another thread.
 

ZeusHam

Manager
some players need to be told everything as thinking for themselves and their teammates is a massive challenge !!!!

Biesla seems not overly concerned about over coaching his teams and Leeds are doing ok with it...

For me the question is 'are the players 'under equipped' and need to be told what to do to cover their own shortcomings.

Billy Davies totally 'drilled the team' into what to do and not to do at all times (incl when not to shoot), They used to have to write their dead ball routines on their arms to remember them....watching them practiced in training was eye opening !!

Grayson had everyone working to a system.
As the players often said "everyone knows their jobs"......

I suspect it wasnt a question being asked when we were doing well and will be not we aren't.....

Maybe the lack of quality is just coming home to roost and the management can't keep covering up the weaknesses.
Understand what you're saying & I agree but I think that it can also work the other way though, where you're giving too much instruction or detail to players that aren't getting it or don't have the capacity to understand what is being asked of them. I think the best managers are the ones that give the instruction where needed & know when to keep their mouth shut & let players express themselves. For all the faults he had, it came across to me that Grayson was a great man manager, evident in Beckford. You could JB had the confidence in himself & his ability to thrive for us under Grayson, something he'd lost after his time at Leeds.
I think Sinclair is the current best example of this (and Harrop to a certain extent) both players have plenty of ability & skill, but don't seem to understand the way AN wants them to play, I as a fan want these sorts of players to express themselves & attack. I think AN puts too many restraints on his attacking players, just my opinion of course...
 

Paul Szacsky

Forum Patron
Patron
When WBA came knocking for AN I was bricking it, now I not arsed if he goes.

I remember going on Deepdale and my mate saying "watch this new boy Barkhuizen go!" and sure enough Barky got the ball, faced his man up and glided past him with minimal fuss, it wasn't a flash in the pan as he did it time and again resulting in the opposition having to put two players on him...how many times do you see two players on Barky now?
Sinclair is the same but a better player technically, I'll bet he's as frustrated as fuck at having to think about defending never mind having to do it!
Both players are attacking wingers, all they should be thinking about is how to hurt the opposition, they can't do that because AN is 'coaching' that side of the game out of them, you can actually see the same thing happening to Sinclair as happened to Barky, is it any wonder we are so blunt going forward.
Playing defensive in this league will get you absolutely nowhere apart from L1, it looked to me as AN would have been happy with a point even before they scored, Cardiff blinked first and made subs having realised we were their for the taking, we did nothing until they scored and the fact that we went back into a defensive shape after we equalized tells us all we need to know.
I hated King Billy when he left us in such shitty circumstances, still do a bit but i reckon he'd have our group of boys firing on all cylinders, AN for whatever reason has lost the plot imho.
 
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LancasterRed

Mad Scientist
Patron
The Barkhuizen argument is an interesting one. I crunched the numbers a while ago from his first half season with us and deduced that Barkhuizen starting in a Grayson team was akin to starting 1-0 up. Alex Neil hasn't been able to get that level of performance out of him.
 

OOOO3

Forum Patron
Patron
He over analyses everything and more concerned about outsmarting the opposition tactically.

Now we are chasing and not holding on to 6th lets just go for it. No fear. 7th or 12th who gives a fuck just go for it and push on. If we make it and scoring some goals then it gives us a fighting chance.
 

diggerb

Forum Patron
Patron
When WBA came knocking for AN I was bricking it, now I not arsed if he goes.

I remember going on Deepdale and my mate saying "watch this new boy Barkhuizen go!" and sure enough Barky got the ball, faced his man up and glided past him with minimal fuss, it wasn't a flash in the pan as he did it time and again resulting in the opposition having to put two players on him...how many times do you see two players on Barky now?
Sinclair is the same but a better player technically, I'll bet he's as frustrated as fuck at having to think about defending never mind having to do it!
Both players are attacking wingers, all they should be thinking about is how to hurt the opposition, they can't do that because AN is 'coaching' that side of the game out of them, you can actually see the same thing happening to Sinclair as happened to Barky, is it any wonder we are so blunt going forward.
Playing defensive in this league will get you absolutely nowhere apart from L1, it looked to me as AN would have been happy with a point even before they scored, Cardiff blinked first and made subs having realised we were their for the taking, we did nothing until they scored and the fact that we went back into a defensive shape after we equalized tells us all we need to know.
I hated King Billy when he left us in such shitty circumstances, still do a bit but i reckon he'd have our group of boys firing on all cylinders, AN for whatever reason has lost the plot imho.
Simplistically there must be two schools of thought, keep it tight and try and pinch a goal to win it, ala Mr Neil, (conceding 3 at home can be a problem with this method) or let your opponents worry about your attacking strengths and attack the fuck out of them, ala Ian Holloway at Blackpool, (having an owner who thinks £22,000 is too much for a striker can be a problem with this method) So we are buggered either way until uncle Trev sees the light and stops being such a scrooge!! But in truth i think we would all prefer seeing us fail at least having a go !!!!
 

OOOO3

Forum Patron
Patron
Simplistically there must be two schools of thought, keep it tight and try and pinch a goal to win it, ala Mr Neil, (conceding 3 at home can be a problem with this method) or let your opponents worry about your attacking strengths and attack the fuck out of them, ala Ian Holloway at Blackpool, (having an owner who thinks £22,000 is too much for a striker can be a problem with this method) So we are buggered either way until uncle Trev sees the light and stops being such a scrooge!! But in truth i think we would all prefer seeing us fail at least having a go !!!!
To be honest as it hurts me to say this but Holloway’s never say die attitude was good to watch and what fans want to see. Not this fear of losing.
 

26-0

Advisor to the Owner
Surely at this point he must be seriously considering reverting to our most successful strategy, the high press.

We can’t match most Championship clubs in terms of budget or player quality but a combination of high energy, great teamwork and team spirit, defensive solidity and a sprinkling of flair from players such as Sinclair, Harrop and Bodin harnessed to our proven winning formula, pressing high up the pitch, would surely result in far more goals and victories for us and the best chance of finishing in the top six.

What have we to lose at this stage?

AN’s win ratio (and value) is currently plummeting so he needs to do something to quickly stop the rot for his own sake as well as ours. I doubt even struggling Championship clubs would be interested in employing him considering his current performance.

I’ll be tuning in again on Wed hoping for a massive improvement upon what he/they have produced in the last several matches.
 

Thracia

Forum Patron
Patron
Surely at this point he must be seriously considering reverting to our most successful strategy, the high press.

We can’t match most Championship clubs in terms of budget or player quality but a combination of high energy, great teamwork and team spirit, defensive solidity and a sprinkling of flair from players such as Sinclair, Harrop and Bodin harnessed to our proven winning formula, pressing high up the pitch, would surely result in far more goals and victories for us and the best chance of finishing in the top six.

What have we to lose at this stage?

AN’s win ratio (and value) is currently plummeting so he needs to do something to quickly stop the rot for his own sake as well as ours. I doubt even struggling Championship clubs would be interested in employing him considering his current performance.

I’ll be tuning in again on Wed hoping for a massive improvement upon what he/they have produced in the last several matches.
Wasn't the high press responsible for all those hamstrings a-twanging?
 
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