Brexit never? Britain can still change its mind, says Article 50 autho

PNEESSEX

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The equivalent of the IRA would have existed in England had the Nazis won in 45. Their methods were abhorrent but they were an inevitable consequence of the history of Ireland in the last 400 years.
The point I was trying to make to John was that Nationalists are not the same as PIRA members. I know/knew many fine Irish Nationalists. I know/knew no IRA members.

I agree that even a cursory glance at the history of Ireland would explain why the PIRA existed though I'd argue that that explanation isn't the same as justification.
 

Nobber

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May needs to ignore her hard line Brexiteers and Corbyn needs to ignore his hard line Remainers, and that way, a compromise that can unite the majority of the country will emerge.

I think Corbyn is willing to play his part, but what about May?
So you're saying Corbyn should ignore people like you.
 

Mer5eywhite

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The point I was trying to make to John was that Nationalists are not the same as PIRA members. I know/knew many fine Irish Nationalists. I know/knew no IRA members.

I agree that even a cursory glance at the history of Ireland would explain why the PIRA existed though I'd argue that that explanation isn't the same as justification.
Nationalism and the IRA do not go hand in hand and as you say, to conflate the two is just wrong. Their methods were unjustifiable yet to me there is a deep irony that their attack on the Baltic Exchange probably brought them closer to the table for talks than any of the maiming and slaughter of innocents. That tells you an awful lot about those in power.

For the record I was close friends with somebody shot by the other side 26 years ago (UVF) and they empty a bag when they visit the toilet. They lost their eldest brother and their father. The eldest brother's fiancée hung herself a month later at the memorial mass. Ireland does not want to back to those times.

With the immediate possibility of a border, insisted upon by the EU, what the media seem to ignore is the real threat of loyalist terrorism if a united Ireland became a reality later on.
 

raefil

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Nationalism and the IRA do not go hand in hand and as you say, to conflate the two is just wrong. Their methods were unjustifiable yet to me there is a deep irony that their attack on the Baltic Exchange probably brought them closer to the table for talks than any of the maiming and slaughter of innocents. That tells you an awful lot about those in power.

For the record I was close friends with somebody shot by the other side 26 years ago (UVF) and they empty a bag when they visit the toilet. They lost their eldest brother and their father. The eldest brother's fiancée hung herself a month later at the memorial mass. Ireland does not want to back to those times.

With the immediate possibility of a border, insisted upon by the EU, what the media seem to ignore is the real threat of loyalist terrorism if a united Ireland became a reality later on.
Over and over again, and I`ll keep reminding.

One the biggest sales pitchs of the Brexiters was?


Taking back control of our borders.

It was either ignorance or deceit on their part, you make your mind up on that one, that they managed to keep the NI/Republic of Ireland border problem out of the discussion.

It is us that has decided to shut up shop not the other way around.
 

Mer5eywhite

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Over and over again, and I`ll keep reminding.

One the biggest sales pitchs of the Brexiters was?


Taking back control of our borders.

It was either ignorance or deceit on their part, you make your mind up on that one, that they managed to keep the NI/Republic of Ireland border problem out of the discussion.

It is us that has decided to shut up shop not the other way around.
The EU are insistent on the border, they are using it as leverage, it would be naïve to think otherwise.

It is perhaps a shame that they didn't operate slightly more secure borders in the south where people are concerned but hey people aren't goods are they? Money is more important than people. It was the same with Westminster and the Baltic Exchange bombing and it is the similar with the insistence on a hard border in Northern Ireland. They don't give a flying fuck about the troubles and are no better than the lunatics in Westminster. If you think otherwise then it seems you will swallow whatever bullshit they're spouting. Sorry Raef, I just don't see how people can't see it. At least I can vote the knobs in Westminster out! Didn't you watch the Chomsky interview?
 

Liberation

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Just by way of reminder









Our choice, this has in no way been forced upon us by the EU.


Wheres the bit about the EU growing out of control, won't budge or reform on it's stance, has unelected leaders and creates policy behind closed doors without minutes or opposition?
 

raefil

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The EU are insistent on the border, they are using it as leverage, it would be naïve to think otherwise.

It is perhaps a shame that they didn't operate slightly more secure borders in the south where people are concerned but hey people aren't goods are they? Money is more important than people. It was the same with Westminster and the Baltic Exchange bombing and it is the similar with the insistence on a hard border in Northern Ireland. They don't give a flying fuck about the troubles and are no better than the lunatics in Westminster. If you think otherwise then it seems you will swallow whatever bullshit they're spouting. Sorry Raef, I just don't see how people can't see it. At least I can vote the knobs in Westminster out! Didn't you watch the Chomsky interview?
No mate, it is us, well the Brexiteers that very clearly stated.

"Take back control of our borders."

Our choice, we voted for it, now it has to be accepted and owned by those that did.

You can blame others as much as you like, it was our choice and our choice alone.
 

raefil

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Wheres the bit about the EU growing out of control, won't budge or reform on it's stance, has unelected leaders and creates policy behind closed doors without minutes or opposition?
Good debate but jack shit to do with the irish border problem
 

Mer5eywhite

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No mate, it is us, well the Brexiteers that very clearly stated.

"Take back control of our borders."

Our choice, we voted for it, now it has to be accepted and owned by those that did.

You can blame others as much as you like, it was our choice and our choice alone.
I'm not saying we thought it all through, its clear we didn't but there are shades of grey in any dispute and if you really believe the Irish border problem is all our fault then I think that is possibly borne out of some prejudice against the Tories. What we have here is two sets of Tories fighting. One can be removed democratically, the other cannot.
 

raefil

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I'm not saying we thought it all through, its clear we didn't but there are shades of grey in any dispute and if you really believe the Irish border problem is all our fault then I think that is possibly borne out of some prejudice against the Tories. What we have here is two sets of Tories fighting. One can be removed democratically, the other cannot.
Theres no shades on this one and recent postings have reafirmed, quite strongly, what people, at least on here voted for.

Closed borders. End to freedom of movement. Now whether it was thought through or not the fact remains that our only land border is the NI/ROI border.

Sorry, its more than a little churlish to blame the EU for what is very clearly our choice.
 

Liberation

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Theres no shades on this one and recent postings have reafirmed, quite strongly, what people, at least on here voted for.

Closed borders. End to freedom of movement. Now whether it was thought through or not the fact remains that our only land border is the NI/ROI border.

Sorry, its more than a little churlish to blame the EU for what is very clearly our choice.

There is no border now and there will be none after ............ I appreciate that it's your last straw but you'd be better off just chewing it .
 

raefil

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There is no border now and there will be none after ............ I appreciate that it's your last straw but you'd be better off just chewing it .
Ive no problem with no border whatever. Im not convinced that most Brexiteers would like the implications of that though :)
 
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