Brexit never? Britain can still change its mind, says Article 50 autho

europne

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I see it’s going really well this Brexit thing, everyone working together for the common good.

It’s really coming together in a sensible planned way.

We don’t look to the rest of the world like a country of dickheads arguing about something no one understands do we, this thread just sums up the total confusion.

But of course we are the best country in the world and it will all turn out ok. We don’t want nasty Johnny Foreigner coming in anymore, we do however want nice Johnny Foreigner buying lots of things from us though.

What jolly fun.
 

Regardless

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The EU are insistent on the border, they are using it as leverage, it would be naïve to think otherwise.
Oh my goodness.... raef made the point that 'taking back control of our borders' was central to the Leave campaign - and that that has rather obvious consequences for the UK borders with the EU... and he points out that it was the UK that has decided to follow that course. It's us. To try to re-write that FACT is ridiculous and disingenuous. Make other arguments for Leave if you like... quite a few of them have reasonable merit... but trying to defend the indefensible is... well, indefensible.

Wheres the bit about the EU growing out of control, won't budge or reform on it's stance, has unelected leaders and creates policy behind closed doors without minutes or opposition?
Interesting arguments - but jack sh1t to do with the Northern Irish border.

I'm not saying we thought it all through, its clear we didn't but there are shades of grey in any dispute and if you really believe the Irish border problem is all our fault then I think that is possibly borne out of some prejudice against the Tories. What we have here is two sets of Tories fighting. One can be removed democratically, the other cannot.
Stop. Just Stop. This is nothing to do with prejudice against the Tories.

There is no border now and there will be none after ............ I appreciate that it's your last straw but you'd be better off just chewing it .
Oh my giddy aunt. You want to completely leave the EU. To take back control of our borders. But you want us to dictate the terms to the EU. Unless you have some magic solution, then this is just plain arrogant.
 

northender0602

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Nationalism and the IRA do not go hand in hand and as you say, to conflate the two is just wrong. Their methods were unjustifiable yet to me there is a deep irony that their attack on the Baltic Exchange probably brought them closer to the table for talks than any of the maiming and slaughter of innocents. That tells you an awful lot about those in power.

For the record I was close friends with somebody shot by the other side 26 years ago (UVF) and they empty a bag when they visit the toilet. They lost their eldest brother and their father. The eldest brother's fiancée hung herself a month later at the memorial mass. Ireland does not want to back to those times.

With the immediate possibility of a border, insisted upon by the EU, what the media seem to ignore is the real threat of loyalist terrorism if a united Ireland became a reality later on.
My late mum always said there would be a bloodbath if anyone tried to reunite Ireland. Wether that would stand nowadays, but she certainly felt it back in the early 80s
 

Regardless

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One thing I will add (might well have been mentioned)... it's been noticable to me that any talk of a second referendum or significant delay to Brexit seem to be fading fast. 6 or 8 weeks ago, if someone on Question Time argued that we needed to go back to the people in order to break the stalemate... half the audience would loudly cheer to try to drown out the jeers from the other half. But in recent weeks, the support is muted... just a bit of applause.

Bad news, IMO - because it's looking more and more like we'll either end up with a hard brexit, which would be an almost immediate disaster... or end up with a dreadful fudged 'deal' - in which the road to disaster would be slower but no less disastrous.
 

riverkiller

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And yes I know it’s on Russia Today but it is almost undeniably true nevertheless.
There are many on here who dismiss information simply because they dislike the source. I reckon that as many data points as possible should be considered. The truth is somewhere, but it won't be found if points are rubbished just because of who publishes an article.
 

raefil

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There are many on here who dismiss information simply because they dislike the source. I reckon that as many data points as possible should be considered. The truth is somewhere, but it won't be found if points are rubbished just because of who publishes an article.
Like all media it needs to be balanced against other reporting. RT can and is a good source of info but like the MSM here folk listening or reading need to have one eye on agendas.

There are truths that come out on RT that are ignored by the MSM and vice versa.
 

raefil

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Like all media it needs to be balanced against other reporting. RT can be and is a good source of info but like the MSM here folk listening or reading need to have one eye on agendas.

There are truths that come out on RT that are ignored by the MSM and vice versa.
 

pnematic

Manager
Send all the glow stick folks over to their shores, complete with banging tunes, that will beat the buggers into submission
On that note I wonder where we ll finish in the Eurovision Song Contest this year?

The BBC sponsored event ( ie the U.K. licence payer) will be in full tactical voting mode.

They really don’t like us folks - suits me just fine as they won’t have to suffer the nasty Brits much longer.
 

PNEESSEX

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Nationalism and the IRA do not go hand in hand and as you say, to conflate the two is just wrong. Their methods were unjustifiable yet to me there is a deep irony that their attack on the Baltic Exchange probably brought them closer to the table for talks than any of the maiming and slaughter of innocents. That tells you an awful lot about those in power.

For the record I was close friends with somebody shot by the other side 26 years ago (UVF) and they empty a bag when they visit the toilet. They lost their eldest brother and their father. The eldest brother's fiancée hung herself a month later at the memorial mass. Ireland does not want to back to those times.

With the immediate possibility of a border, insisted upon by the EU, what the media seem to ignore is the real threat of loyalist terrorism if a united Ireland became a reality later on.
I don't agree that the EU are the only ones insistent upon a border, it's an inevitable consequence of not remaining in a customs union or in regulatory alignment. I do however think that the increased likelihood of a reunited Ireland carries with it the real danger of resurgent paramiltary groups. As you point out, the media have remained very silent about the elephant in the room which is loyalist groups that are every bit as dangerous (and mental) as the republican groups
 

Nobber

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I see it’s going really well this Brexit thing, everyone working together for the common good.

It’s really coming together in a sensible planned way.

We don’t look to the rest of the world like a country of dickheads arguing about something no one understands do we, this thread just sums up the total confusion.

But of course we are the best country in the world and it will all turn out ok. We don’t want nasty Johnny Foreigner coming in anymore, we do however want nice Johnny Foreigner buying lots of things from us though.

What jolly fun.
:ROFLMAO:
 

PNEESSEX

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On that note I wonder where we ll finish in the Eurovision Song Contest this year?

The BBC sponsored event ( ie the U.K. licence payer) will be in full tactical voting mode.

They really don’t like us folks - suits me just fine as they won’t have to suffer the nasty Brits much longer.
Obvs Australia and Israel (and any number of other odd places) are in the EU......you dont need to be in the EU to think that the UK are knobs
 

raefil

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On that note I wonder where we ll finish in the Eurovision Song Contest this year?

The BBC sponsored event ( ie the U.K. licence payer) will be in full tactical voting mode.

They really don’t like us folks - suits me just fine as they won’t have to suffer the nasty Brits much longer.
On a serious note, and I think this pre dates even any talk of Brexit, I think youre right and I often find myself asking the question why?
 

raefil

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Brexit timeline, from Sept 18:

Jez Corbyn: meet me Tezza
May: no

TM: will this work
EU: no

TM: this?
EU: no

TM: this?
EU: no

TM: this?
EU: yes Parliament: no

TM: help
JC: stop no deal blackmail
TM: no
EU: no renegotiations

TM: this?
EU: no

JC: this works
EU: that works
TM: no
 

sliper

Manager
I don't agree that the EU are the only ones insistent upon a border, it's an inevitable consequence of not remaining in a customs union or in regulatory alignment. I do however think that the increased likelihood of a reunited Ireland carries with it the real danger of resurgent paramiltary groups. As you point out, the media have remained very silent about the elephant in the room which is loyalist groups that are every bit as dangerous (and mental) as the republican groups
So if we leave the customs union we have to build a border ? Who is going to insist on it ?

If its the EU's customs union then surely it is them insisting on a border ?
After March 29th the EU has no say.. or should have no say in UK matters. So they can talk all they like about hard borders.. but the UK government isn't bound by that. If they want a hard border they will have to build it. I suspect the issue will go quiet after Mar 29th...

I see nothing in WTO rules that insists on a hard border... or checks at the border.

It is very clear the UK gov will not be building a hard border.

So why is it an "inevitable consequence" ? You really must stop reading the Guardian..
 

sedgwick__7

First Team
JC: this works
EU: that works
TM: no
Of course the EU think it works. It would give them almost full control over our trade policy, even though we'll be a third country to them. Seems pretty ridiculous to me to hand over our trade policy to a foreign body we're not going to be part of, with almost no say over it.

Also worth noting that leaving the customs union was in the Conservative 2017 manifesto, and May would almost certainly be toppled by her own party and significantly harm the Tories electorally if she soften the red line on this issue.
 

raefil

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So if we leave the customs union we have to build a border ? Who is going to insist on it ?

If its the EU's customs union then surely it is them insisting on a border ?
After March 29th the EU has no say.. or should have no say in UK matters. So they can talk all they like about hard borders.. but the UK government isn't bound by that. If they want a hard border they will have to build it. I suspect the issue will go quiet after Mar 29th...

I see nothing in WTO rules that insists on a hard border... or checks at the border.

It is very clear the UK gov will not be building a hard border.

So why is it an "inevitable consequence" ? You really must stop reading the Guardian..
Its not from the Guardian mate, its from the mouths of your heroes.

Twist it and shout it as much as you like but it was they who sold Brexit thus:

"Lets take back control of our borders."

If they or yourself didnt think that through its theirs and your problem.
 
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