Covid 19 - counter arguments

Sepp Blatter

Liz Truss Groupie
Patron
I've agreed with its general thrust for awhile.. the left is largely (of course there are exceptions) comfortable and middle class these days.

I've always had my doubts about people who belief themselves right and virtuous because they hold certain political beliefs. That position has always struck me as superficial.. which too easily slips into classing anyone with different views as "right wing", "racist" bad, wrong etc etc and therefore their views can easily be rejected. I think to a large extent this has happened with Covid. Trump talks about "hydrothingy" and as result of guilt by association any discussion of the drug becomes a "right wing" issue.. and is automatically rejected by liberals and the left.

That motor mouthed moron with the pony tail they wheel out on GMTV.. described demonstrations against vaccine passports as "right wing". Really ??

The left seem curiously comfortable with the corporate hegemony as long as it is superficially dressed up with one of their favoured "campaigning issues" and have a strange belief that the state can be trusted to deliver their utopian vision. There doesn't seem to be any evidence at all to support this idea.. it seems to be entirely based on the idea that "a person holding similar views to myself in government can be trusted.. while everyone else especially those right wingers can't be trusted"

All this creates the impression that the left has lost its grip on reality and has moved along way from practical improvements to UK society like universal health care and education it achieved last century.. and now seems to have drifted into a type of nebulous globalism that slips easily into exactly what the corporate/banking class are pushing. None of this registers with them.. as long as the corporates produce adverts incorporating references to "climate change" "gender equality" they seem fine with it.
Too much of a rabbit hole for this thread, but I have had many issues with elements of the left/centre-left (obviously, it is not a monolith) and their disregard or even support for austerity measures in Southern Europe.

Anecdotal, of course, but the same people and journalists who supported that unflinchingly are the same ones calling for vaccine passports etc.

Not left vs. right, now, but authoritarians vs libertarians, IMO.
 

Regardless

Forum Patron
Patron
I've agreed with its general thrust for awhile.. the left is largely (of course there are exceptions) comfortable and middle class these days.

I've always had my doubts about people who belief themselves right and virtuous because they hold certain political beliefs. That position has always struck me as superficial.. which too easily slips into classing anyone with different views as "right wing", "racist" bad, wrong etc etc and therefore their views can easily be rejected. I think to a large extent this has happened with Covid. Trump talks about "hydrothingy" and as result of guilt by association any discussion of the drug becomes a "right wing" issue.. and is automatically rejected by liberals and the left.

That motor mouthed moron with the pony tail they wheel out on GMTV.. described demonstrations against vaccine passports as "right wing". Really ??

The left seem curiously comfortable with the corporate hegemony as long as it is superficially dressed up with one of their favoured "campaigning issues" and have a strange belief that the state can be trusted to deliver their utopian vision. There doesn't seem to be any evidence at all to support this idea.. it seems to be entirely based on the idea that "a person holding similar views to myself in government can be trusted.. while everyone else especially those right wingers can't be trusted"

All this creates the impression that the left has lost its grip on reality and has moved along way from practical improvements to UK society like universal health care and education it achieved last century.. and now seems to have drifted into a type of nebulous globalism that slips easily into exactly what the corporate/banking class are pushing. None of this registers with them.. as long as the corporates produce adverts incorporating references to "climate change" "gender equality" they seem fine with it.

Whilst unsurprisingly a little OTT in places for my liking, there’s quite a lot good about that post.
 

Sepp Blatter

Liz Truss Groupie
Patron
Whilst unsurprisingly a little OTT in places for my liking, there’s quite a lot good about that post.
What gets me is the idea that being against vaccine passports or supporting the right to protest is somehow right wing when it is very little to do with that. Most anarchists would be very bemused to be called that! Not trusting governments and large corporations has a long and noble history on the left.

(Not aiming that at people on here - most posters accept that such broad stereotypes are facile).

For me, I agree with Slips and believe that too many people identifying as left have fallen into corporatism and supporting technocracy.
 

Regardless

Forum Patron
Patron
What gets me is the idea that being against vaccine passports or supporting the right to protest is somehow right wing when it is very little to do with that. Most anarchists would be very bemused to be called that! Not trusting governments and large corporations has a long and noble history on the left.

(Not aiming that at people on here - most posters accept that such broad stereotypes are facile).

For me, I agree with Slips and believe that too many people identifying as left have fallen into corporatism and supporting technocracy.

Agreed. And reading the post from @sliper again, there remains a “lot of good” in the post - and I also registered a couple of caveats this time - so not as OTT as I first thought.

This is probably the bit that remains most OTT IMO: [the Left] have a strange belief that the state can be trusted to deliver their utopian vision
 
OP
sliper

sliper

Advisor to the Owner
This is probably the bit that remains most OTT IMO: [the Left] have a strange belief that the state can be trusted to deliver their utopian vision

They do seem to believe that if their favoured leftists/liberals come to power then society will be "put right" by government decisions.. it seems to me fanciful to believe anyone in the current crop of politicians a) will do as they say and that b) powerful vested interests and the plain corrupt will cease to influence decision making. I saw a video the other day in which Tony Blair stated "his people were embedded in governments around the world working to end the pandemic". Hmmm..

IMO it will take a rare individual or group to change politics for the good at present.
 

Sepp Blatter

Liz Truss Groupie
Patron
They do seem to believe that if their favoured leftists come to power then society will be "put right" by government decisions.. it seems to me fanciful to believe anyone in the current crop of politicians a) will do as they say and that b) powerful vested interests and the plain corrupt will cease to influence decision making. I saw a video the other day in which Tony Blair stated "his people were embedded in governments around the world working to end the pandemic".

IMO it will take a rare individual or group to change politics for the good at present.

Must admit, there is something sinister about that. That odious fool is usually up to something that serves his own political ends as he tries to sneak in his failed neoliberal ideology.
 
OP
sliper

sliper

Advisor to the Owner
He's a lover of technocracy, where the great and the wise make all the decisions without letting that troublesome democracy get in the way.

Yep.. did you ever get round to reading Patrick Wood ? You had better watch your step Sepp.. folks will be accusing you of promoting tin foil hat conspiracy theories.

How's the missus ?
 

outreacher

Respect Nature
Patron
"We need to look again again at our global system of governance"

OK Tony.. who elected you to that role ?
It all started with his plan to Nationalise the NHS with (PPP, PFI) which he later included PFI into our Foreign Aid policy trying to make money for companies like Biwater who messed up the water distribution in places like Tanzania,................. long story.
 
OP
sliper

sliper

Advisor to the Owner
It all started with his plan to Nationalise the NHS with (PPP, PFI) which he later included PFI into our Foreign Aid policy trying to make money for companies like Biwater who messed up the water distribution in places like Tanzania,................. long story.

The problem as I see it is that people like Tony Blair, Bill Gates, Klaus Schwarb, etc have far too much influence over national governments.. I'd go so far as to say they have their people embedded and now control national governments.

I think folks need to acknowledge there is a massive problem before we can start to work out how to change things.
 

outreacher

Respect Nature
Patron
The problem as I see it is that people like Tony Blair, Bill Gates, Klaus Schwarb, etc have far too much influence over national governments.. I'd go so far as to say they have their people embedded and now control national governments.

I think folks need to acknowledge there is a massive problem before we can start to work out how to change things.

Tony Blair tried to make money out of the Foreign Aid Programme, with disastrous results in Tanzania, the President eventually kicking our aid programme (Biwater) out of the country, as it only benefited the wealthy. Blair was the mastermind of our Foreign Aid programme, which was basically a money making enterprise.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2008/jul/28/utilities.tanzania
 

outreacher

Respect Nature
Patron
The problem as I see it is that people like Tony Blair, Bill Gates, Klaus Schwarb, etc have far too much influence over national governments.. I'd go so far as to say they have their people embedded and now control national governments.

I think folks need to acknowledge there is a massive problem before we can start to work out how to change things.

I think there is a reference to Tanzania on this Documentary, not sure...if not I will find the information elsewhere, World Bank etc, supposedly there to help poorer countries...

 

pnewortham

Forum Patron
Patron

Good news from Japan !

The genetics part is certainly interesting stuff, and SARS disappearing off the face of the earth was intriguing. There's definitely merit in expanding our genetic screening to better understand the variations in natural susceptibility.

But unfortunately the first part of the video is just another example of circumstantial, snapshot science.

Trying to assign causation of Ivermectin 2 weeks before the peak of that wave, and astonished that the wave then tips over. And all the guff about Google translate and buying drugs from India. As if some huge, but slightly covert, population-wide Ivermectin program was in full swing that could even begin to account for that correlation.

So what accounts for all the previous waves petering out then? In every country. At every timepoint. (As it does - every single wave goes up, then down. Sure as eggs is eggs.) Why should this wave be the only one to have such a simple, synthetic answer.

He's developed a compelling line in convenient, weak, folk-science.
 
OP
sliper

sliper

Advisor to the Owner
The genetics part is certainly interesting stuff, and SARS disappearing off the face of the earth was intriguing. There's definitely merit in expanding our genetic screening to better understand the variations in natural susceptibility.

But unfortunately the first part of the video is just another example of circumstantial, snapshot science.

Trying to assign causation of Ivermectin 2 weeks before the peak of that wave, and astonished that the wave then tips over. And all the guff about Google translate and buying drugs from India. As if some huge, but slightly covert, population-wide Ivermectin program was in full swing that could even begin to account for that correlation.

So what accounts for all the previous waves petering out then? In every country. At every timepoint. (As it does - every single wave goes up, then down. Sure as eggs is eggs.) Why should this wave be the only one to have such a simple, synthetic answer.

He's developed a compelling line in convenient, weak, folk-science.

He discusses a number of causes for the drop but he clearly believes that allowing Ivermectin as a treatment is the primary cause.
We all have our biases. Extraordinarily this drop has occurred going into the winter.

Would you say the same about the vaccine ? Last spring it was widely claimed by politicians and the media that the vaccine was reducing "infection" rates but they failed to mention an almost identical decline happened the previous spring without the vaccine
Aren't they doing much the same ? Shouldn't they also be accused of "convenient weak folk science" ?
At least John Campbell considers the alternatives.

There is a simple answer to this.. try it in a different country with rising infections and see if there is a similar outcome.
I suspect we will be waiting a good while for that.
 

jakehake

Preachs PA
Staff member
Patron
He discusses a number of causes for the drop but he clearly believes that allowing Ivermectin as a treatment is the primary cause.
We all have our biases. Extraordinarily this drop has occurred going into the winter.

Would you say the same about the vaccine ? Last spring it was widely claimed by politicians and the media that the vaccine was reducing "infection" rates but they failed to mention an almost identical decline happened the previous spring without the vaccine
Aren't they doing much the same ? Shouldn't they also be accused of "convenient weak folk science" ?
At least John Campbell considers the alternatives.

There is a simple answer to this.. try it in a different country with rising infections and see if there is a similar outcome.
I suspect we will be waiting a good while for that.

The spring where we were allowed out for an hour a day? Have you conveniently forgotten that?
 

pnewortham

Forum Patron
Patron
He discusses a number of causes for the drop but he clearly believes that allowing Ivermectin as a treatment is the primary cause.
We all have our biases. Extraordinarily this drop has occurred going into the winter.

Would you say the same about the vaccine ? Last spring it was widely claimed by politicians and the media that the vaccine was reducing "infection" rates but they failed to mention an almost identical decline happened the previous spring without the vaccine
Aren't they doing much the same ? Shouldn't they also be accused of "convenient weak folk science" ?
At least John Campbell considers the alternatives.

There is a simple answer to this.. try it in a different country with rising infections and see if there is a similar outcome.
I suspect we will be waiting a good while for that.

Don't get me wrong - this is not me dismissing Ivermectin. We simply have no data. (And why should we, it isn't licensed.) But do you honestly think a (large enough) proportion of Japanese doctors have been prescribing drugs brought in from India to a huge chunk of the Japanese population to have that sized effect? As you say - we've got large vaccine levels here and still struggling with high case loads.

So you'd think, what, 50, 60, 70, 80% of the entire Japanese population would need to be administered Ivermectin smuggled in from India, to have a similar or bigger effect? Do we honestly think that's been happening in an advanced, modern healthcare system?

This is just me attacking his circumstantial science. Him and many others.

It's all very convenient because this commentary comes when the cases have flattened right down. "What could have caused that??" So if they start to rise again (waves, waves and more waves....), what's the narrative then?

Check this graph. What explains all the ups & downs?

1637835892776.png
 
OP
sliper

sliper

Advisor to the Owner
The spring where we were allowed out for an hour a day? Have you conveniently forgotten that?

That may be part of the picture but in that case why would the media trumpet the wonders of the vaccine, to the almost total exclusion of all other possibilities ? We saw that echoed here !

It could also have been Vit D levels in the population increasing as people started going out more. It was a lovely spring and many took every opportunity to get out of their houses. I know we did.

Another possibility John Campbell mentions is some aspect of Japanese genetics.

So why the total emphasis on the vaccinating the entire population to the exclusion of other medications and supplements ?
 
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