Covid 19 - counter arguments

pnewortham

Forum Patron
Patron
That may be part of the picture but in that case why would the media trumpet the wonders of the vaccine, to the almost total exclusion of all other possibilities ? We saw that echoed here !

It could also have been Vit D levels in the population increasing as people started going out more. It was a lovely spring and many took every opportunity to get out of their houses. I know we did.

Another possibility John Campbell mentions is some aspect of Japanese genetics.

So why the total emphasis on the vaccinating the entire population to the exclusion of other medications and supplements ?

Because vaccination works. Scientifically. Globally. Historically.

And because this is a respiratory virus. It passes from human to human in airborne droplets. Sure - stay fit, stay healthy, eat well, exercise, get a balanced diet rich in vitamins & minerals. These can all help to reduce severity across a population. But they don't stop a virus from spreading.

You've already caught it by then, so you're just hoping to reduce the severity.

But all other treatments are just that - treatments. Vaccination is the only true prophylaxis we have.
 
OP
sliper

sliper

Advisor to the Owner
Don't get me wrong - this is not me dismissing Ivermectin. We simply have no data. (And why should we, it isn't licensed.) But do you honestly think a (large enough) proportion of Japanese doctors have been prescribing drugs brought in from India to a huge chunk of the Japanese population to have that sized effect? As you say - we've got large vaccine levels here and still struggling with high case loads.

So you'd think, what, 50, 60, 70, 80% of the entire Japanese population would need to be administered Ivermectin smuggled in from India, to have a similar or bigger effect? Do we honestly think that's been happening in an advanced, modern healthcare system?

This is just me attacking his circumstantial science. Him and many others.

It's all very convenient because this commentary comes when the cases have flattened right down. "What could have caused that??" So if they start to rise again (waves, waves and more waves....), what's the narrative then?

Check this graph. What explains all the ups & downs?

We could also mention the parts of Africa hardly affected by Covid.. and their widespread use of Ivermectin for anti parasitic purposes.

And the many doctors who seem convinced that it works and would willingly prescribe it if allowed.. sadly its use has become politicised like much in the last two years.

Obviously I cannot say definitively that it works but there does appear to be mounting evidence that it does.

The drug is used to treat "symptomatic cases" not to prevent them so I imagine that people had been importing it and that doctors began recommending its use in the face of a developing situation. I know people and groups have been doing similar in this country.

Our government could have adopted a similar "emergency approval" position..
 
OP
sliper

sliper

Advisor to the Owner
I can’t verify if this (found in a few seconds by Googling) is accurate. But even if it’s not, surely it is indicative.

View attachment 5298

How much has the CMO personally profited from the vaccine he recommends ?
And why is making money ok for one and not the other ?
Personally I don't see any ads on his videos so I doubt very much he is earning anything like those sort of figures..
 

KeithLard

Forum Patron
Patron
I don’t left and right exist anymore, not in the traditional sense. There are still the extremes of both out there of course, but both terms are used to shoot down an argument like everything else now.

I can’t understand how if you are traditionally left-wing, you could support vaccine passports and ruling a section of society out of it classing them as “the unvaccinated” as if they all carry an obvious deadly disease around with them maliciously.

Vaccine passports and segregation of people are fundamentally a traditionally right-wing act – yet it is the “left” that are pushing it.

I feel quite strongly about what is happening because I want my kids to grow up in a happy world. There will always be murky things in the world, but my daughter for example shouldn’t go to school and be told a) she can’t identify as a girl because it might offend someone, b) she needs to wear a mask to protect other people from a not-very-deadly virus, c) she needs to be forcibly injected with a not-tested-very-well vaccine to have access to a shop, cinema, restaurant, etc

All of the above are fascist measures. Yet the right don’t want them, but the left do, apparently.

My hope is common sense at some point will prevail. Viruses come and go, people can die of them. Sounds flippant, but it is not meant to be. You shouldn’t rearrange society for a virus which isn’t deadly in the slightest. We are creeping towards the worse of the “conspiracy theories” that have been spoken about. If the house of cards comes falling down, we may end up with a fairer society without hyper-capitalism, media control and corrupt politicians. Live in hope!
 

KeithLard

Forum Patron
Patron
Because vaccination works. Scientifically. Globally. Historically.

And because this is a respiratory virus. It passes from human to human in airborne droplets. Sure - stay fit, stay healthy, eat well, exercise, get a balanced diet rich in vitamins & minerals. These can all help to reduce severity across a population. But they don't stop a virus from spreading.

You've already caught it by then, so you're just hoping to reduce the severity.

But all other treatments are just that - treatments. Vaccination is the only true prophylaxis we have.

Most vaccines are tested over a long period of time before rolled out. I've heard the argument from some that they "condensed" 8 years of work into 6 months for this vaccine, but I still don't get how you could learn long-term effects doing that. Unless they had a time machine.

The video below from Russell Brand gives detail on a Pfizer whistleblower. Detail provided suggests there wasn't much care taken during the testing stage of the virus and certainly with following up with adverse effects. More just a push to get the whole thing down and out irrespective of the side effects:

 

raefil

Dolly Patron
Patron
I don’t left and right exist anymore, not in the traditional sense. There are still the extremes of both out there of course, but both terms are used to shoot down an argument like everything else now.

I can’t understand how if you are traditionally left-wing, you could support vaccine passports and ruling a section of society out of it classing them as “the unvaccinated” as if they all carry an obvious deadly disease around with them maliciously.

Vaccine passports and segregation of people are fundamentally a traditionally right-wing act – yet it is the “left” that are pushing it.

I feel quite strongly about what is happening because I want my kids to grow up in a happy world. There will always be murky things in the world, but my daughter for example shouldn’t go to school and be told a) she can’t identify as a girl because it might offend someone, b) she needs to wear a mask to protect other people from a not-very-deadly virus, c) she needs to be forcibly injected with a not-tested-very-well vaccine to have access to a shop, cinema, restaurant, etc

All of the above are fascist measures. Yet the right don’t want them, but the left do, apparently.

My hope is common sense at some point will prevail. Viruses come and go, people can die of them. Sounds flippant, but it is not meant to be. You shouldn’t rearrange society for a virus which isn’t deadly in the slightest. We are creeping towards the worse of the “conspiracy theories” that have been spoken about. If the house of cards comes falling down, we may end up with a fairer society without hyper-capitalism, media control and corrupt politicians. Live in hope!
I am 100% against domestic vaccine passports.

IMHO it's a trojan horse being used to introduce a national ID system.
 

Sepp Blatter

Liz Truss Groupie
Patron
The genetics part is certainly interesting stuff, and SARS disappearing off the face of the earth was intriguing. There's definitely merit in expanding our genetic screening to better understand the variations in natural susceptibility.

But unfortunately the first part of the video is just another example of circumstantial, snapshot science.

Trying to assign causation of Ivermectin 2 weeks before the peak of that wave, and astonished that the wave then tips over. And all the guff about Google translate and buying drugs from India. As if some huge, but slightly covert, population-wide Ivermectin program was in full swing that could even begin to account for that correlation.

So what accounts for all the previous waves petering out then? In every country. At every timepoint. (As it does - every single wave goes up, then down. Sure as eggs is eggs.) Why should this wave be the only one to have such a simple, synthetic answer.

He's developed a compelling line in convenient, weak, folk-science.
Correlation and causation do seem to be alien concepts as far as Covid is concerned!

A bit like when, if cases go down, it is because of lockdown; if they rise, it is because we didn't lockdown enough :p :D

Do agree with your point, though - there are far too many variables that researchers are only just starting to pick through. What caused a fall in Japan could be very different from what caused a fall in the UK etc.

I watch some Dr Campbell videos, although I treat him like any other science reporter - he aggregates information that I usually check for myself if I am interested.
 

Sepp Blatter

Liz Truss Groupie
Patron
That may be part of the picture but in that case why would the media trumpet the wonders of the vaccine, to the almost total exclusion of all other possibilities ? We saw that echoed here !

It could also have been Vit D levels in the population increasing as people started going out more. It was a lovely spring and many took every opportunity to get out of their houses. I know we did.

Another possibility John Campbell mentions is some aspect of Japanese genetics.

So why the total emphasis on the vaccinating the entire population to the exclusion of other medications and supplements ?
The genetics was very interesting and something I will try to look at if I get time (busy over the next couple of days).

When people were making crude comparisons of death rates early in the epidemic, pointing to Asia, a few pointed out that there may be some sort of preexisting immunity in some Asian populations that skewed the data.
 

Portishead

Manager
I don’t left and right exist anymore, not in the traditional sense. There are still the extremes of both out there of course, but both terms are used to shoot down an argument like everything else now.

I can’t understand how if you are traditionally left-wing, you could support vaccine passports and ruling a section of society out of it classing them as “the unvaccinated” as if they all carry an obvious deadly disease around with them maliciously.

Vaccine passports and segregation of people are fundamentally a traditionally right-wing act – yet it is the “left” that are pushing it.

I feel quite strongly about what is happening because I want my kids to grow up in a happy world. There will always be murky things in the world, but my daughter for example shouldn’t go to school and be told a) she can’t identify as a girl because it might offend someone, b) she needs to wear a mask to protect other people from a not-very-deadly virus, c) she needs to be forcibly injected with a not-tested-very-well vaccine to have access to a shop, cinema, restaurant, etc

All of the above are fascist measures. Yet the right don’t want them, but the left do, apparently.

My hope is common sense at some point will prevail. Viruses come and go, people can die of them. Sounds flippant, but it is not meant to be. You shouldn’t rearrange society for a virus which isn’t deadly in the slightest. We are creeping towards the worse of the “conspiracy theories” that have been spoken about. If the house of cards comes falling down, we may end up with a fairer society without hyper-capitalism, media control and corrupt politicians. Live in hope!

Thing that made my ears prick up the other day was Johnson or AN other stating we had invested heavily in our labs such that we'll be ready for the next pandemic. So the profitability of a part of our economy will depend on another one. You can see where this could go, especially given the evident strength of influence the health industry has over the govt.
 

Sepp Blatter

Liz Truss Groupie
Patron
Thing that made my ears prick up the other day was Johnson or AN other stating we had invested heavily in our labs such that we'll be ready for the next pandemic. So the profitability of a part of our economy will depend on another one. You can see where this could go, especially given the evident strength of influence the health industry has over the govt.
Wonder how many politicians and experts across the globe have interests in pharmaceutical companies - or may look at lockdowns and masks every time we have a winter flu outbreak as a way to avoid investing in extra healthcare capacity.

Plus, governments have passed a raft of laws restricting protests and other freedoms - can we be sure that they are going to completely remove them, never to be used again? A well timed epidemic just as people are protesting against government policies....gets those pesky XR people off the streets.
 

Realistic

usual liker
Patron
I am 100% against domestic vaccine passports.

IMHO it's a trojan horse being used to introduce a national ID system.
Okay, this is my opportunity. You're against that but you want something conclusive doing about racism and the only thing that can be done to stop "someone", "somewhere" saying a bad word is to monitor us in any way they can. So, you don't want a national ID system but you (by logical deduction) do want 'big brother'. Inconsistent, raefil.
 

pnewortham

Forum Patron
Patron
We could also mention the parts of Africa hardly affected by Covid.. and their widespread use of Ivermectin for anti parasitic purposes.

And the many doctors who seem convinced that it works and would willingly prescribe it if allowed.. sadly its use has become politicised like much in the last two years.

Obviously I cannot say definitively that it works but there does appear to be mounting evidence that it does.

The drug is used to treat "symptomatic cases" not to prevent them so I imagine that people had been importing it and that doctors began recommending its use in the face of a developing situation. I know people and groups have been doing similar in this country.

Our government could have adopted a similar "emergency approval" position..

But this line of reasoning just makes no sense.

What are you proposing - abandon the vaccination program (as per all the false rumours in Japan), in favour of letting everyone catch Covid then treating them with Ivermectin?
 

pnewortham

Forum Patron
Patron
I feel quite strongly about what is happening because I want my kids to grow up in a happy world. There will always be murky things in the world, but my daughter for example shouldn’t go to school and be told a) she can’t identify as a girl because it might offend someone, b) she needs to wear a mask to protect other people from a not-very-deadly virus, c) she needs to be forcibly injected with a not-tested-very-well vaccine to have access to a shop, cinema, restaurant, etc

How many more billion people do you want it injected in, before we can call it well-tested?
 

pnewortham

Forum Patron
Patron
Most vaccines are tested over a long period of time before rolled out. I've heard the argument from some that they "condensed" 8 years of work into 6 months for this vaccine, but I still don't get how you could learn long-term effects doing that. Unless they had a time machine.

The video below from Russell Brand gives detail on a Pfizer whistleblower. Detail provided suggests there wasn't much care taken during the testing stage of the virus and certainly with following up with adverse effects. More just a push to get the whole thing down and out irrespective of the side effects:


Please stop it with the conspiracy theory and the pseudo-clinical science.

If you go & read about the decade of research into RNA delivery carriers and the fact that this generation of vaccines have been long in the development pipeline for flu vaccines. The technology was already there. The in-vitro and pre-clinicals were done years ago.

It was massively fortuitous that the pharma industry had this technology so close to fruition and that covid was a respiratory virus and not some other nasty.
 

Snicky

Thorium Indium Potassium
Patron
Please stop it with the conspiracy theory and the pseudo-clinical science.

If you go & read about the decade of research into RNA delivery carriers and the fact that this generation of vaccines have been long in the development pipeline for flu vaccines. The technology was already there. The in-vitro and pre-clinicals were done years ago.

It was massively fortuitous that the pharma industry had this technology so close to fruition and that covid was a respiratory virus and not some other nasty.
But, evil "Big Pharma..."
 

raefil

Dolly Patron
Patron
Okay, this is my opportunity. You're against that but you want something conclusive doing about racism and the only thing that can be done to stop "someone", "somewhere" saying a bad word is to monitor us in any way they can. So, you don't want a national ID system but you (by logical deduction) do want 'big brother'. Inconsistent, raefil.
Im sure you understand what this is about :ROFLMAO:
 

Realistic

usual liker
Patron
Im sure you understand what this is about :ROFLMAO:
You know what it's about, you just won't answer the question. Did you notice that justice was done yesterday with the three white dudes who went down for shooting the black guy. Things are not as bad as you would have us believe. Oh and a mostly white jury. (was it 11-1, not sure about that)
 
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