Government to break international law.

portisheadpete

Forum Patron
Patron
I haven't read all the posts, so sorry if I am talking tosh but International treaties etc are broken every now and then.
They are not that sacred. The Irish did it in 1928 against us.

Roger
We’ve only just bloody signed it and the present govt was elected in the back of it being the best thing since sliced bread. These tossers never intended to comply with it and they told ERG this at the time. Off you roger.
 

PNEESSEX

Forum Patron
Patron
I haven't read all the posts, so sorry if I am talking tosh but International treaties etc are broken every now and then.
They are not that sacred. The Irish did it in 1928 against us.

Roger
Oh that's alright then....is this a serious attempt to justify this Government's fuckwittery?
 

raefil

Shit Fan
Patron
I’ve been asked for another step-by-step explanation of what’s just happened in Westminster.

So voila: an update on Johnson’s plans to destabilise Ireland and isolate the UK…

1) As we know, Parliament is now considering whether to empower Johnson to override, directly & deliberately, two clear and precise legal obligations under the very Withdrawal Agreement he signed with the EU: controls on goods from NI to GB; and state aid rules in relation to NI

2) & as we know, those breaches of international law risk range of very serious consequences. Not least for NI: state aid regime is necessary to prevent unfair dumping of UK goods into EU and is therefore an integral part of avoiding a “hard border” across the island of Ireland

3) So already Johnson is consciously provoking EU into either allowing Single Market to be compromised by unfair UK trade practices or taking appropriate steps to safeguard its external frontiers by instigating controls on NI trade. & thinks he can then blame EU for “hard border”

4) What can EU do about it? Withdrawal Agreement provides that, during transition, dispute settlement is via European Court of Justice (not arbitration): Commission can bring proceedings v. UK, for ECJ to deliver binding ruling; if UK doesn’t comply, ECJ can impose £€ penalties

5) Problem is: that’s still “just” international law and UKIM Bill would authorise Johnson regime simply to ignore also any CJEU rulings or penalties against UK here. Ultimately, if UK wants to provoke full-scale crisis, EU’s response would have to be political and diplomatic.

6) But just as important as what Bill actually says, is how Tories are presenting it / claims they are making to justify their international delinquency. Because those claims bear little relationship to the actual contents of the Bill – total, shocking dishonesty and propaganda…

7) 1st, Johnson claims EU is planning to prevent GB foodstuffs entering NI, effectively imposing a “blockade”. 2nd, also claims EU is insisting on “extreme” interpretation that would require GB goods entering NI to pay EU customs duties. 2 serious problems with Johnson's claims

8) First major problem: this Bill wouldn’t actually do *anything* to address those alleged problems, since it does not empower UK to disapply any of provisions of Protocol governing the movement of goods from GB into NI. So Johnson’s claims are totally irrelevant and misleading

9) Second major problem: those aren’t “extreme” interpretations. They're clear and obvious: eg Protocol says ALL GB goods presumed at risk of entering EU & must pay EU customs unless proven otherwise. Joint Comm has power to determine what counts as “otherwise”. But rule is clear

10) So even problems Johnson is complaining about are problems he negotiated, signed, sold in the election as “triumph” of his diplomacy, told his MPs to pass through Parliament and agreed with EU as a matter of binding international law. For him to complain now? Totally indecent

11) Serious worry now? Having made such fuss about blockades/extreme interpretations, Johnson will bring forward fresh proposals to authorise UK *also* to breach provisions of Protocol governing trade in goods from GB into NI. If so: would escalate already difficult situation x10

12) In such situation, Johnson would effectively be ripping up treaty that seeks to protect Ireland (north & south) from inherently damaging consequences of UK decision to leave the EU, Customs Union & Single Market. As if years of complex & difficult negotiations never happened

13) EU would have little choice but to act, to safeguard its borders & protect its citizens. But make no mistake: UK would be solely responsible for creation of a “hard border” across Ireland that would directly undermine the Good Friday Agreement and jeopardise the peace process

14) And no amount of Tory propaganda could trivialise the situation (“oh, but other countries break the law all the time…”) or to fool anyone, save their own fanatical & bigoted support base, that the UK is the injured party (“oh, the nasty foreigners have been bullying us…”)

15) So Johnson has set this country on a trajectory that is as serious as it is shocking: risks making UK a threat not just to rules-based international order that UK itself helped create; but also to international peace and security in Ireland and therefore in Europe. Diabolical

 

portisheadpete

Forum Patron
Patron
I’ve been asked for another step-by-step explanation of what’s just happened in Westminster.

So voila: an update on Johnson’s plans to destabilise Ireland and isolate the UK…

1) As we know, Parliament is now considering whether to empower Johnson to override, directly & deliberately, two clear and precise legal obligations under the very Withdrawal Agreement he signed with the EU: controls on goods from NI to GB; and state aid rules in relation to NI

2) & as we know, those breaches of international law risk range of very serious consequences. Not least for NI: state aid regime is necessary to prevent unfair dumping of UK goods into EU and is therefore an integral part of avoiding a “hard border” across the island of Ireland

3) So already Johnson is consciously provoking EU into either allowing Single Market to be compromised by unfair UK trade practices or taking appropriate steps to safeguard its external frontiers by instigating controls on NI trade. & thinks he can then blame EU for “hard border”

4) What can EU do about it? Withdrawal Agreement provides that, during transition, dispute settlement is via European Court of Justice (not arbitration): Commission can bring proceedings v. UK, for ECJ to deliver binding ruling; if UK doesn’t comply, ECJ can impose £€ penalties

5) Problem is: that’s still “just” international law and UKIM Bill would authorise Johnson regime simply to ignore also any CJEU rulings or penalties against UK here. Ultimately, if UK wants to provoke full-scale crisis, EU’s response would have to be political and diplomatic.

6) But just as important as what Bill actually says, is how Tories are presenting it / claims they are making to justify their international delinquency. Because those claims bear little relationship to the actual contents of the Bill – total, shocking dishonesty and propaganda…

7) 1st, Johnson claims EU is planning to prevent GB foodstuffs entering NI, effectively imposing a “blockade”. 2nd, also claims EU is insisting on “extreme” interpretation that would require GB goods entering NI to pay EU customs duties. 2 serious problems with Johnson's claims

8) First major problem: this Bill wouldn’t actually do *anything* to address those alleged problems, since it does not empower UK to disapply any of provisions of Protocol governing the movement of goods from GB into NI. So Johnson’s claims are totally irrelevant and misleading

9) Second major problem: those aren’t “extreme” interpretations. They're clear and obvious: eg Protocol says ALL GB goods presumed at risk of entering EU & must pay EU customs unless proven otherwise. Joint Comm has power to determine what counts as “otherwise”. But rule is clear

10) So even problems Johnson is complaining about are problems he negotiated, signed, sold in the election as “triumph” of his diplomacy, told his MPs to pass through Parliament and agreed with EU as a matter of binding international law. For him to complain now? Totally indecent

11) Serious worry now? Having made such fuss about blockades/extreme interpretations, Johnson will bring forward fresh proposals to authorise UK *also* to breach provisions of Protocol governing trade in goods from GB into NI. If so: would escalate already difficult situation x10

12) In such situation, Johnson would effectively be ripping up treaty that seeks to protect Ireland (north & south) from inherently damaging consequences of UK decision to leave the EU, Customs Union & Single Market. As if years of complex & difficult negotiations never happened

13) EU would have little choice but to act, to safeguard its borders & protect its citizens. But make no mistake: UK would be solely responsible for creation of a “hard border” across Ireland that would directly undermine the Good Friday Agreement and jeopardise the peace process

14) And no amount of Tory propaganda could trivialise the situation (“oh, but other countries break the law all the time…”) or to fool anyone, save their own fanatical & bigoted support base, that the UK is the injured party (“oh, the nasty foreigners have been bullying us…”)

15) So Johnson has set this country on a trajectory that is as serious as it is shocking: risks making UK a threat not just to rules-based international order that UK itself helped create; but also to international peace and security in Ireland and therefore in Europe. Diabolical

They must have had some measure of Trump encouragement for this - he would support any anti EU measure up to a point. That point being anything that impacts Ireland. We are useful as a short term poodle but we’ll suffer the consequences alone if they arrogantly carry this through, inclusive of international trade sanctions And even blockades. They never said that Brexit would lead us to voluntarily become a rogue state . We know what happens to rogue states. Theyre brought to heal eventually economically and bow and scrape to come back into the international fold. Raab is starting to do this today. Hes good at weakly caving in.
 
OP
Regardless

Regardless

Forum Patron
Patron
I’ve been asked for another step-by-step explanation of what’s just happened in Westminster.

So voila: an update on Johnson’s plans to destabilise Ireland and isolate the UK…

1) As we know, Parliament is now considering whether to empower Johnson to override, directly & deliberately, two clear and precise legal obligations under the very Withdrawal Agreement he signed with the EU: controls on goods from NI to GB; and state aid rules in relation to NI

2) & as we know, those breaches of international law risk range of very serious consequences. Not least for NI: state aid regime is necessary to prevent unfair dumping of UK goods into EU and is therefore an integral part of avoiding a “hard border” across the island of Ireland

3) So already Johnson is consciously provoking EU into either allowing Single Market to be compromised by unfair UK trade practices or taking appropriate steps to safeguard its external frontiers by instigating controls on NI trade. & thinks he can then blame EU for “hard border”

4) What can EU do about it? Withdrawal Agreement provides that, during transition, dispute settlement is via European Court of Justice (not arbitration): Commission can bring proceedings v. UK, for ECJ to deliver binding ruling; if UK doesn’t comply, ECJ can impose £€ penalties

5) Problem is: that’s still “just” international law and UKIM Bill would authorise Johnson regime simply to ignore also any CJEU rulings or penalties against UK here. Ultimately, if UK wants to provoke full-scale crisis, EU’s response would have to be political and diplomatic.

6) But just as important as what Bill actually says, is how Tories are presenting it / claims they are making to justify their international delinquency. Because those claims bear little relationship to the actual contents of the Bill – total, shocking dishonesty and propaganda…

7) 1st, Johnson claims EU is planning to prevent GB foodstuffs entering NI, effectively imposing a “blockade”. 2nd, also claims EU is insisting on “extreme” interpretation that would require GB goods entering NI to pay EU customs duties. 2 serious problems with Johnson's claims

8) First major problem: this Bill wouldn’t actually do *anything* to address those alleged problems, since it does not empower UK to disapply any of provisions of Protocol governing the movement of goods from GB into NI. So Johnson’s claims are totally irrelevant and misleading

9) Second major problem: those aren’t “extreme” interpretations. They're clear and obvious: eg Protocol says ALL GB goods presumed at risk of entering EU & must pay EU customs unless proven otherwise. Joint Comm has power to determine what counts as “otherwise”. But rule is clear

10) So even problems Johnson is complaining about are problems he negotiated, signed, sold in the election as “triumph” of his diplomacy, told his MPs to pass through Parliament and agreed with EU as a matter of binding international law. For him to complain now? Totally indecent

11) Serious worry now? Having made such fuss about blockades/extreme interpretations, Johnson will bring forward fresh proposals to authorise UK *also* to breach provisions of Protocol governing trade in goods from GB into NI. If so: would escalate already difficult situation x10

12) In such situation, Johnson would effectively be ripping up treaty that seeks to protect Ireland (north & south) from inherently damaging consequences of UK decision to leave the EU, Customs Union & Single Market. As if years of complex & difficult negotiations never happened

13) EU would have little choice but to act, to safeguard its borders & protect its citizens. But make no mistake: UK would be solely responsible for creation of a “hard border” across Ireland that would directly undermine the Good Friday Agreement and jeopardise the peace process

14) And no amount of Tory propaganda could trivialise the situation (“oh, but other countries break the law all the time…”) or to fool anyone, save their own fanatical & bigoted support base, that the UK is the injured party (“oh, the nasty foreigners have been bullying us…”)

15) So Johnson has set this country on a trajectory that is as serious as it is shocking: risks making UK a threat not just to rules-based international order that UK itself helped create; but also to international peace and security in Ireland and therefore in Europe. Diabolical

I really don’t claim to be any sort of expert on all this. But you know how seriously I started to view the incongruity between the referendum result and the Good Friday Agreement - from some time in 2017, I guess.

As the attempts to fudge the issue made it all clearer, you know that it was the one key thing that made me believe that (regrettably*) the referendum result should be revisited rather than accepted (normally my default position - like most, I was brought up to accept defeat with grace - but this seemed just too consequential- and also unjust).

The post above does nothing but increase my fears. Some have said May’s deal would have been better. Possibly so, but I suspect that the fundame flaws would have somehow surfaced in a similar way.
 

raefil

Shit Fan
Patron
I really don’t claim to be any sort of expert on all this. But you know how seriously I started to view the incongruity between the referendum result and the Good Friday Agreement - from some time in 2017, I guess.

As the attempts to fudge the issue made it all clearer, you know that it was the one key thing that made me believe that (regrettably*) the referendum result should be revisited rather than accepted (normally my default position - like most, I was brought up to accept defeat with grace - but this seemed just too consequential- and also unjust).

The post above does nothing but increase my fears. Some have said May’s deal would have been better. Possibly so, but I suspect that the fundame flaws would have somehow surfaced in a similar way.
The bottom line is that leaving the EU and the Good Friday agreement are incompatible with one another. Always have been always will be. This fundamental fact was barely touched on by either side during the referendum debate. The only way out of this is for a United Ireland.

Its not going to happen is it?
 

PNEESSEX

Forum Patron
Patron
Yeah, lock stock and barrel.

Subject to contract, walking distance from Stormont. More for the cricket than the politics!

The in-laws are far enough away and have the cows to milk.

Bishop’s Stortford has been very good to me but I’m looking forward to it.
Very nice part of the city. I once stayed for a few days @ the Stormont Hotel which is virtually opposite the avenue up to Stormont itself. Stortford will be in mourning I'm sure!
 

Liberation

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Patron
You brexiteers need to acknowledge devicise bullshit when you see it. How about given you got your own fucking way you stand up and tell absolute slimes like Cummings to fuck right off trying to keep us all fighting. How about that? How about that being your burden now? It's apparently my burden as a "remainer" that I've to shut the fuck up and never point out the flaws in what these pricks are doing.

Some well balanced and constructive points in there Winkers and I'll give them my full consideration honest.... I'm very sorry about seeing the funny side of "blatantly obvious tactics" You didn't fall for them did you? :)
 
OP
Regardless

Regardless

Forum Patron
Patron
The bottom line is that leaving the EU and the Good Friday agreement are incompatible with one another. Always have been always will be. This fundamental fact was barely touched on by either side during the referendum debate. The only way out of this is for a United Ireland.

Its not going to happen is it?
I think a united Ireland in my lifetime is not at all unrealisti
High placed government lawyers resign but obviously the government are telling the truth and they won't be breaking any laws
He’s not the first, is he?
 
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