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Greg Clarke!!

I've heard people from very diverse parts of London say that when they were primary school age they didn't really have any perception of race as a differentiator as there were people of so many different races and mixes it just seemed like hair colour or eye colour. That obviously isn't going to be the case if someone's the only black kid in a school in say Over Wyre, so hopefully, as you say, as we become more and more diverse being 'black' or 'white' becomes less of a thing.
When I started university I noticed a different attitude amongst the people I met from different parts of the country which I guess depended on the demographics where they came from.

Growing up in Preston with several Pakistani and Indian kids in my class from the age of four it was, so I thought, the norm. I found out quite quickly it wasn't and it took some getting used to. I found the attitudes amongst supposedly intelligent and educated people quite disturbing.
 
I'm half your age, consider myself open minded and a person who takes pride in holding a strong view against 'isms', all that said, although it isn't a term j use myself, I didnt know that term was quite so abhorrent.

Even as a person who tries to navigate life in a sympathetic way, it's difficult to know all of the right things to say and not say.
I dont think anyone is ever going to get everything right all the time.

I guess it's just a case of trying to learn from it and if something is pointed out to you doing your best not to use whatever term that is again.

There is language that is almost universally offensive and then there is other language that is less so.

The difference in this situation is that a person in his position should know better (or be better advised) and the fact he has offended 3 groups of people in one statement suggests an underlying issue
 
My humble understanding, 'coloured man' puts his skin colour first. It assumes a baseline of white skin, and any skin that isn't white is somehow a deviation, with the inference that it isn't normal. But 'man of colour' puts the human being first. It signifies a cultural position and history, without directly observing skin colour.

I get this. But my god, what a banana skin. And I will never utter 'BAME' in my life. How derogatory to lump vast swathes of the world's diaspora into this stupid acronym.

I'm colour blind. Every person on their merit.
Colour blind. I love this and definitely where I stand. Indeed The Farm were singing about this in the early 90's with Love See No Colour. Great post
 
you're making the common mistake of being normal :)

you have to see these interactions through a lens, that detects the 'power dynamics' in every interaction; a lot of this theory comes from identify politics and is now very mainstream

no doubt this was outdated language, but was his intention to be offensive? and speaking this way should lead to losing a career, income and job based on this?

this can happen to any one of us not just 'middle aged white men'; say the wrong thing, intentionally or not, you life - down the swanny

welcome to 2020 (y)
It really couldn't happen to any of us though. In 99% of jobs if you said what Greg Clark said the most that would happen is that someone would have a quiet word and ask you to use a different word next time. If, however, a major part of your job is about increasing acceptance and diversity then people might take it as a sign that you don't know enough about diversity to do the job well (when taken in conjunction with sexist and homophobic statements).
All this talk about the law stepping in and normal people losing their jobs is massively hyperbolic, all that's happening is that people who don't have a good, up to date knowledge of issues surrounding race, gender and sexuality are being moved out of jobs where it's important that they have that understanding.
 
Sorry I see a lot of hypocrisy in the PC brigade, they tend to be very selective for whom, and when they are offended. I have said it before and I will say it again, I answer to my conscience not anyone else, if I feel it’s wrong I don’t do it it’s that simple. As LIS says if you treat people properly you have nothing to fear.
 
Welcome to the training course I had to attend last week

I can't actually remember what the actual outcome was regards all these different terms of which were permissible vs those which we're now seen negatively

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It really couldn't happen to any of us though. In 99% of jobs if you said what Greg Clark said the most that would happen is that someone would have a quiet word and ask you to use a different word next time. If, however, a major part of your job is about increasing acceptance and diversity then people might take it as a sign that you don't know enough about diversity to do the job well (when taken in conjunction with sexist and homophobic statements).
All this talk about the law stepping in and normal people losing their jobs is massively hyperbolic, all that's happening is that people who don't have a good, up to date knowledge of issues surrounding race, gender and sexuality are being moved out of jobs where it's important that they have that understanding.
I like to give benefit of the doubt. What about these interpretations -

1. Clarke explained that he'd lived & worked in America where the convention from various equality training was to use "person of colour", so his use of "coloured" was simply a short-cut / wrong word in wrong order / whatever. A bit clumsy. Hold water?

2. He described it as a very positive thing if footballers could walk onto the pitch and "be happy / be comfortable" with the fact they'd publicly disclosed their sexuality. The added-on words "life choice" were his downfall. But did he actually mean 'happy with their life choice to disclose it', rather than 'happy with their life choice choice to be gay'? Just a bit of extra verbal padding that went wrong?

And a Brucie bonus -

3. Trump told the mob to "stand down, stand by". Did he really mean that as a call to arms, or was the "stand by" just a bit more verbal padding, an alternative way of saying it, but sort of came out a bit wrong. Just a clumsy way of saying stand down?
 
I like to give benefit of the doubt. What about these interpretations -

1. Clarke explained that he'd lived & worked in America where the convention from various equality training was to use "person of colour", so his use of "coloured" was simply a short-cut / wrong word in wrong order / whatever. A bit clumsy. Hold water?

2. He described it as a very positive thing if footballers could walk onto the pitch and "be happy / be comfortable" with the fact they'd publicly disclosed their sexuality. The added-on words "life choice" were his downfall. But did he actually mean 'happy with their life choice to disclose it', rather than 'happy with their life choice choice to be gay'? Just a bit of extra verbal padding that went wrong?

And a Brucie bonus -

3. Trump told the mob to "stand down, stand by". Did he really mean that as a call to arms, or was the "stand by" just a bit more verbal padding, an alternative way of saying it, but sort of came out a bit wrong. Just a clumsy way of saying stand down?
When things are a one-off I'm always happy to give the benefit of the doubt. It is easy to make a mistake after all we are only human.

When you see multiple instances of the same type of action/behaviour it is different
 
Lots of interesting opinions here and I do honestly think that out in our big wide world there are racists, those who have been brought up with certain language and know no better and those who maybe should know better. I can see credence in so many people's posts and believe that in this minefield of racism and correct language many of us can slip up, but then there are also those who seem to be lacking the progressive nature required.

I work in education which has another dimension when it comes to using the correct language and what is acceptable. In a recent 'PSHE' lesson we spoke about the acceptability of using the N word in music and whether that hinders movements such as BLM. I encountered strong opinions both for and against. Interestingly they are very aware of the hiccups different generations will encounter based on the upbringing they have had. The part of Somerset I live in still struggles for diversity, yet they were horrified at some of the language I was brought up with when referring to the Asian communities in Preston (considering I'm only in my mid thirties). I felt ashamed recalling to them some of the terms that my community considered acceptable.

Anyway, the thing I really wanted to share, which shows just how difficult it is to navigate the current social landscape, and also because it really helped me see things from another persons opinion is this. It's an extract from an interview I did a few months ago with a member of staff and friend of mine who grew up in Zimbabwe during apartheid. I'm in no way condoning behaviour, language, etc one way or another, I just thought you may find it as interesting as I did when I interviewed this lovely person.

Under apartheid system we were kept apart purely by the colour of your skin. At the time, as children growing up you don’t really worry about it , because you just get on with life. If you are born into it, that’s the way it is.

Where you went to school, things were segregated by the colour of your skin, but called ‘European’, ‘Coloured and Asian’ or ‘African’. Those were the three tiers. European not white, the signs were about ‘white people’, but when it came to mixed race we were classed as coloured. The blacks were known as African, there wasn’t black or white, it was a three-tiered system. I do know, that for me, if someone calls me coloured, I’m fine with that because I grew up with that. Filling out forms when we get to race I put coloured because that’s what we were known as, because that is what was imposed on us. Whereas, if you were talking to Jamaicans, West Indians they hate the term ‘coloured’. The term I really detest is ‘half cast’, that really does make me angry, and there are very few things that make me angry. It’s because the insinuation seems to be that you are half. Half of what? So is it being implied that I am not good enough a person if I’m not white? Is it being said that white is a whole person? To me it already gives that superior feeling that I’m not good enough because I’m not white.

In the education system there were ‘European’, ‘Coloured and Asian’ and ‘African’ schools. They were designated areas and suburbs, so you lived in those areas with your community. As coloured people we had our own race, our own culture really. It was peculiar but every Zimbabwean would resonate with our upbringing and things that happened.
 
When things are a one-off I'm always happy to give the benefit of the doubt. It is easy to make a mistake after all we are only human.

When you see multiple instances of the same type of action/behaviour it is different
Does Clarke have a history of this?
 
Does Clarke have a history of this?
I'm not sure but 3 instances is one statement shows at the very least a deep lack of understanding for someone in his position.

I'm not suggesting Clarke is a bigot but I also don't think that he necessarily fit for the position he was in.
 
Lots of interesting opinions here and I do honestly think that out in our big wide world there are racists, those who have been brought up with certain language and know no better and those who maybe should know better. I can see credence in so many people's posts and believe that in this minefield of racism and correct language many of us can slip up, but then there are also those who seem to be lacking the progressive nature required.

I work in education which has another dimension when it comes to using the correct language and what is acceptable. In a recent 'PSHE' lesson we spoke about the acceptability of using the N word in music and whether that hinders movements such as BLM. I encountered strong opinions both for and against. Interestingly they are very aware of the hiccups different generations will encounter based on the upbringing they have had. The part of Somerset I live in still struggles for diversity, yet they were horrified at some of the language I was brought up with when referring to the Asian communities in Preston (considering I'm only in my mid thirties). I felt ashamed recalling to them some of the terms that my community considered acceptable.

Anyway, the thing I really wanted to share, which shows just how difficult it is to navigate the current social landscape, and also because it really helped me see things from another persons opinion is this. It's an extract from an interview I did a few months ago with a member of staff and friend of mine who grew up in Zimbabwe during apartheid. I'm in no way condoning behaviour, language, etc one way or another, I just thought you may find it as interesting as I did when I interviewed this lovely person.

Under apartheid system we were kept apart purely by the colour of your skin. At the time, as children growing up you don’t really worry about it , because you just get on with life. If you are born into it, that’s the way it is.

Where you went to school, things were segregated by the colour of your skin, but called ‘European’, ‘Coloured and Asian’ or ‘African’. Those were the three tiers. European not white, the signs were about ‘white people’, but when it came to mixed race we were classed as coloured. The blacks were known as African, there wasn’t black or white, it was a three-tiered system. I do know, that for me, if someone calls me coloured, I’m fine with that because I grew up with that. Filling out forms when we get to race I put coloured because that’s what we were known as, because that is what was imposed on us. Whereas, if you were talking to Jamaicans, West Indians they hate the term ‘coloured’. The term I really detest is ‘half cast’, that really does make me angry, and there are very few things that make me angry. It’s because the insinuation seems to be that you are half. Half of what? So is it being implied that I am not good enough a person if I’m not white? Is it being said that white is a whole person? To me it already gives that superior feeling that I’m not good enough because I’m not white.

In the education system there were ‘European’, ‘Coloured and Asian’ and ‘African’ schools. They were designated areas and suburbs, so you lived in those areas with your community. As coloured people we had our own race, our own culture really. It was peculiar but every Zimbabwean would resonate with our upbringing and things that happened.
Another excellent post in what, I think, has turned into a really good discussion.
 
It really couldn't happen to any of us though. In 99% of jobs if you said what Greg Clark said the most that would happen is that someone would have a quiet word and ask you to use a different word next time. If, however, a major part of your job is about increasing acceptance and diversity then people might take it as a sign that you don't know enough about diversity to do the job well (when taken in conjunction with sexist and homophobic statements).
All this talk about the law stepping in and normal people losing their jobs is massively hyperbolic, all that's happening is that people who don't have a good, up to date knowledge of issues surrounding race, gender and sexuality are being moved out of jobs where it's important that they have that understanding.
You are a very reasonable poster and I know you mean well, Delaney but I just don't share your confidence that everything's gonna be alright. The number of zealots on the bandwagon is growing.
 
It really couldn't happen to any of us though. In 99% of jobs if you said what Greg Clark said the most that would happen is that someone would have a quiet word and ask you to use a different word next time. If, however, a major part of your job is about increasing acceptance and diversity then people might take it as a sign that you don't know enough about diversity to do the job well (when taken in conjunction with sexist and homophobic statements).
All this talk about the law stepping in and normal people losing their jobs is massively hyperbolic, all that's happening is that people who don't have a good, up to date knowledge of issues surrounding race, gender and sexuality are being moved out of jobs where it's important that they have that understanding.
there are a lot of examples


making people too afraid to speak their mind isnt really a healthy way to run a free and open society is it
 
You are a very reasonable poster and I know you mean well, Delaney but I just don't share your confidence that everything's gonna be alright. The number of zealots on the bandwagon is growing.
Have you seen any examples of normal people losing their job for saying the wrong word though? Happy to be proven wrong but personally I haven't. If that starts happening/has happened then be against it by all means, but I don't see how it's relevant to the Greg Clark issue, which given his position is a separate issue entirely.
 
there are a lot of examples


making people too afraid to speak their mind isnt really a healthy way to run a free and open society is it
Didn't see this post before posting my previous message sorry. Without knowing the circumstances or any extenuating factors I'd say on the face of it the story you posted is wrong. I don't think it's equitable to the Greg Clark thing though, GC has way more power than some dude whose on the tills in Asda, so he should be held to higher standards.
 
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