Head versus heart

Jack Daniels

PNE-ONLINE Boxing Expert.
Staff member
Patron
Simon Grayson is finished.

Not even "yesterdays man" anymore. He has regressed beyond this.

Avoid at all costs.

Anyway, we already have a manager, how about we all stick behind him, eh?
 

From91

Manager
I would agree. If AN went I would definitely have SG back.

Moyes (great - lucky as he was assistant)
Brown (shit)
Davies (great - see Moyes)
Simpson (shit)
Alan Irvine (shit)
Darren Ferguson (shit)
Phil Brown (shit)
Medals (shit)

We are fucking awful at appointments historically. Definitely get a man in who was a great fit. Grayson significantly improved most of the players he signed. Beckford's career was over when he rocked up here.
Irvine definitely wasn’t in the same bracket as some of the others mentioned. Actually got us to the play offs but ultimately sacked after a horrendous run of form and bad signings.

I personally don’t see that much difference between Neil and Irvine, some might laugh but the 4 wins in a row at the end of 08/09 and dicking Cardiff 6 nil was epic, especially when compared to the way we’ve finished seasons under Neil when in a great position.
 

Final Stand

Forum Patron
Patron
To the original post Head versus Heart, been a North Ender over 50 yrs, my children & grandchildren are also North Enders, really if I had used my head sooner than heart they would be Man U or Liverpool fans?
 

nigelscamelcoat

Advisor to the Owner
If it was such a simple game, the managers who add additional complexity wouldn't keep winning things.

Bielsa didn't have the most money to spend, but he made Leeds into the league's best team by far.
And he's had a load of stick from the so called expert pundits. Phil Neville the world's most boring man.
 
OP
Staffordwhite

Staffordwhite

Advisor to the Owner
The passion and entertainment of the sporting spectacle is not really existent anywhere at the moment, with their being zero fans in stadiums.

Any new manager that is brought in by the way, whether it’s your choice, Simon Grayson, a manager who recently invested heavily at Blackpool and took them into the bottom half of League One, or somebody else, will take a very similar approach to Neil. Historically we’ve never really played good football, certainly in the last 20 years, and to stay afloat at this level and compete it’s probably going to stay that way.

There’s a reason why Neil outers want to ignore facts and figures . . .

Jesus. I’m all for hearing different opinions, but this is so far through the looking glass I don’t know where to start. 😳

We don’t need to bother with entertainment because there are no fans in the stadium? 🤔

Simon Grayson is my choice as next manager? 🤔

We’ve ‘never played good football in the last 20 years’?? Moyesie, Billy, Irvine when we beat Cardiff, Grayson at Wembley, at no point under Alex Neil? 😳

But, yeah, OK.

Good points. Well made. 😏
 

sedgwick__7

Advisor to the Owner
Jesus. I’m all for hearing different opinions, but this is so far through the looking glass I don’t know where to start. 😳
Yeah, you've made that point with the endless emojis.
We don’t need to bother with entertainment because there are no fans in the stadium? 🤔
Where did I say that ? You're just putting words into my mouth. I said it may be a contributing factor to the disconnect people are feeling from football at the moment, or why they aren't feeling as entertained. We're seeing similar football at PNE to the last 20 odd years, so nothing has changed in that respect.
Simon Grayson is my choice as next manager? 🤔
You've made that clear on multiple occasions. I don't agree with it, but it's a legitimate opinion to hold. No need to deny it.
We’ve ‘never played good football in the last 20 years’?? Moyesie, Billy, Irvine when we beat Cardiff, Grayson at Wembley, at no point under Alex Neil? 😳
No, we've never really played good, 'attractive' football on a regular basis. Certainly not whilst trying to compete at the top of a division. Under Billy Davies, many of the games were attritional and dull, but we got results. Same when we got to the play-offs under Irvine. That's what PNE generally have to do to win games regularly at the level, because we don't have the players or the resources to out-football teams every week.

You've picked out 2 individual results to try to suggest that we were entertaining to watch throughout Irvine and Grayson's entire tenures. Wembley was fantastic, but the vast majority of our time in League One under Grayson was hoof ball and holding onto 1-0 leads at Deepdale, against the likes of Crawley and Colchester. Again, we won one game 6-0 under Alan Irvine, it doesn't mean we were playing attractive football.

If we're going to pick out individual results, then why not reference 4-1 at home to Blackburn under Neil ? 4-0 and 3-0 at home to Wigan. I don't think the football is that attractive under Neil, but if you're picking out a limited number big scorelines and entertaining results and judging Grayson and Irvine's football on that basis, why not do the same for Neil (because your mind is always made up, I suspect).
But, yeah, OK.

Good points. Well made. 😏
I'm just trying to engage with normal discussion about the football rather than bringing the sarcasm into it. You're perfectly entitled to your viewpoints as am I.
 

sedgwick__7

Advisor to the Owner
Simon Grayson is finished.

Not even "yesterdays man" anymore. He has regressed beyond this.

Avoid at all costs.

Anyway, we already have a manager, how about we all stick behind him, eh?
Simon did a good job for PNE. For the most part it could be very dull, Wembley aside, but it is not always easy getting promotion especially when you are expected to and the pressure is really on.

He also did a decent job establishing us in this league, having to put up with a lot of the nonsense and crap recruitment policy that Neil does now.

But he is now a busted flush, as shown by his last 3 jobs. Was basically given a free rein at Blackpool to build a new team and he made them worse. I don't think he's really recovered from the ordeal of going into Sunderland, getting sacked and it being put on the Netflix documentary. He was on record as saying he wasn't happy at how he was portrayed.
 

Final Stand

Forum Patron
Patron
Simon did a good job for PNE. For the most part it could be very dull, Wembley aside, but it is not always easy getting promotion especially when you are expected to and the pressure is really on.

He also did a decent job establishing us in this league, having to put up with a lot of the nonsense and crap recruitment policy that Neil does now.

But he is now a busted flush, as shown by his last 3 jobs. Was basically given a free rein at Blackpool to build a new team and he made them worse. I don't think he's really recovered from the ordeal of going into Sunderland, getting sacked and it being put on the Netflix documentary. He was on record as saying he wasn't happy at how he was portrayed.

Sunderland big club, greater pressures, no sympathy the way he left us at the start of a season.
 

pne_monster

Advisor to the Owner
It’s a case of head versus heart at the moment with North End fans.

Call it Generation X versus Generation ‘xG’.

Those who see football as some form of science, who thrill about stats and Match of the Day analysis think Alex Neil is doing a great job.

Those who go with their heart and think it should be about passion, pride, entertainment and excitement tend to think the opposite.

I understand why the modern football fan often leans to the former; the game is more sterile now than it’s ever been (on and off the pitch). This is going to sound patronising I know, but it’s kind of all they’ve ever known and part of me genuinely feels sorry for them.

For me, if you’re more concerned about dissecting performances like some student dissertation, you’re missing the point.

It’s like when you were a kid in science and the geeks would thrill about the workings of a dead frog, splayed out in the lab: ‘Look at the optimal expected thrust generated by the muscle percentage from those back legs!’ 🤓

Personally, I’d rather the frog was still alive and could jump up and make a run (hop!) for it to great cheers from the class: ‘Go on Froggie lad!!’ 😅

Less educational, but far more entertaining.

I don’t know how the game itself (not just North End) brings these two factions together but unless it can, the long-term future looks bleak.

There have been so many mis-steps and mistakes in recent years, it’s never been easier to fall out of love with a sport that some of us barely recognise these days.

It’s a funny thing, but the more I hear that annoyingly smug catch-all soundbite ‘the game has moved on’ the more I feel it’s left something behind. 😔
I wonder if fans used to say this in the 90s about how good football used to be back in the 60s and 70s, or fans in the 70s about the 50s or ... well... you get my point.
 

Durutti

Manager
Irvine definitely wasn’t in the same bracket as some of the others mentioned. Actually got us to the play offs but ultimately sacked after a horrendous run of form and bad signings.

I personally don’t see that much difference between Neil and Irvine, some might laugh but the 4 wins in a row at the end of 08/09 and dicking Cardiff 6 nil was epic, especially when compared to the way we’ve finished seasons under Neil when in a great position.

We are hindsighting here. He was deeply, deeply unpopular by the end, (Neil still has a lot of support, particularly outside this forum) seemed utterly clueless (look at our league form after an appalling start) and failed elsewhere after us. The signings were definitely below the Neil and Grayson bracket simply because they were bloody expensive prem and championship reserve lads. They came on huge contracts and took the piss. At least those fucking morons playing yesterday don't earn much.

Had Neil had the cash to.ppay with that Irvine did we wouldn't have the thin squad we have now. I think to compare Neil and Irvine is nonsense personally but each to their own.
 

Durutti

Manager
I wonder if fans used to say this in the 90s about how good football used to be back in the 60s and 70s, or fans in the 70s about the 50s or ... well... you get my point.
There's definitely a lot of that going on. People used to rage about Moyes back on the old forum. A ton of people wanted Billy Davies sacked after the Leeds defeat. Craig Brown was universally despised let we often look back on that era of relative the 'North End Galacticos' with dewy eyes. We are grown adults who spend our time writing about a provincial football club. It's a process that doesn't attract the most well rounded individuals and before you criticise I said we. 😂
 

From91

Manager
We are hindsighting here. He was deeply, deeply unpopular by the end, (Neil still has a lot of support, particularly outside this forum) seemed utterly clueless (look at our league form after an appalling start) and failed elsewhere after us. The signings were definitely below the Neil and Grayson bracket simply because they were bloody expensive prem and championship reserve lads. They came on huge contracts and took the piss. At least those fucking morons playing yesterday don't earn much.

Had Neil had the cash to.ppay with that Irvine did we wouldn't have the thin squad we have now. I think to compare Neil and Irvine is nonsense personally but each to their own.
I do agree with some of that but the gap between Irvine and Neil in terms of measurable success is nowhere near as big as your suggesting. Your very much ‘Neil in’ and have said Irvine was shit, in terms of league positions and strength of squad I can’t see a lot of difference. Some fans for whatever reason just don’t take to certain managers but like you said each to their own.
 

Whoopi Goldberg

First Team
We are hindsighting here. He was deeply, deeply unpopular by the end, (Neil still has a lot of support, particularly outside this forum) seemed utterly clueless (look at our league form after an appalling start) and failed elsewhere after us. The signings were definitely below the Neil and Grayson bracket simply because they were bloody expensive prem and championship reserve lads. They came on huge contracts and took the piss. At least those fucking morons playing yesterday don't earn much.

Had Neil had the cash to.ppay with that Irvine did we wouldn't have the thin squad we have now. I think to compare Neil and Irvine is nonsense personally but each to their own.
I disagree about Irvine being deeply,deeply unpopular at the end,to be honest I thought it came as a bit of a shock when he got sacked
 

Mooney magic

First Team
An observation I made this week, and it was handed on a plate by the club itself, by showing the highlights of our last cup meeting with Wycombe. Just how far backwards we've gone since our last meeting is incredible.
2 goals each for Harrop and Browne, plus 1 for Horgan. The squad then, compared to now is meant to have progressed!
 

Durutti

Manager
I disagree about Irvine being deeply,deeply unpopular at the end,to be honest I thought it came as a bit of a shock when he got sacked
Just as it would be a fucking headliner grabber if Alex 'Got em to 12th place despite no investment and a really bad start' Neil got potted now. Irvine was struggling but the key difference is the amount spent on players. Neil gets more out of a lot less than what AI had.

As I 've said, PNE online and real life are different. Anyone supporting Irvine was routinely mocked on here back then. He was drab, a dullard, etc. I actually do see the point he was different to say, Ferguson, who was just fucking awful from day one, but to say he was not a poor PNE manager now or especially back then is rewriting history.
 
Top