Petition for fans to be allowed back into stadiums

dawsonsjs

Reserve
There are limits to how much you can put in ma short post zorro and I used the confirmed Covid cases v recorded fataliities...currently (rounded), 603,000 v 43,000.....that's currently 7%.

The point I was making though are that this does not begin to reflect the continuing number of people with chronic conditions, some short term, others not so. You are quite right with regards to the absence of data...it is only just being identified and recorded that Covid can and does cause chronic lung, heart and brain disease. I am a trustee of a large neurological charity and I know from the requests we are receiving for the use of our rehabilitation facilities that the evidence on such matter is there.

The public focus, as in many of the postings on this site...and why I posted....is on the fatalities...with many people erroneously thinking that as it seems that many people are not dying, and the ones that are, are elderly and/or have underlying health conditions , then it is safe to let fans back into football...on the basis that they will be safe (and, presumably unlikely to spread Covid and, even if they do, the impact is negligible). when the epidemiological evidence we do have, such as the R rate and the current Covid demography, suggest nothing could be further from the truth.

There are those saying 'fans have been let back in Europe' but they are ignoring the controls that have been established...the Germans, for instance, requiring and R rate of 3.5 (per 100,000) before a match can go ahead with spectators....there's no urban area I know of in the UK that could comply with this

Hence the opinion I expressed that amounts to petitions of the one raised are utterly pointless because there's no politician of any party going to risk the consequences of spectator sport whilst the infection rate remain so high with so many younger people now contracting it. .Whilst it is true MOST will only have mild or moderate symptoms, if any, and make a quick recovery sadly you currently do not have to look far to find students now in hospital beds allocated for Covid patients




.
 

JK

The Big Boss
Staff member
Patron
Given what Oliver Dowden didn't say on his interview this morning on the BBC was a clear indicator there is no plans to even look at this area until cases reduce which doesn't look any time soon.

He stated that since October 1st they have not "eased any restrictions" and that it would be "inappropriate" to allow fans into stadiums.

Dan Walker did push him on the Science and rationale between Indoor events being allowed and outdoor not but he didn't give an answer.

Whilst I think that fans may end up in the lower leagues at some point I have pretty much written this season off in terms of attending a championship football match.
 

edgy

Forum Patron
Patron
Given what Oliver Dowden didn't say on his interview this morning on the BBC was a clear indicator there is no plans to even look at this area until cases reduce which doesn't look any time soon.

He stated that since October 1st they have not "eased any restrictions" and that it would be "inappropriate" to allow fans into stadiums.

Dan Walker did push him on the Science and rationale between Indoor events being allowed and outdoor not but he didn't give an answer.

Whilst I think that fans may end up in the lower leagues at some point I have pretty much written this season off in terms of attending a championship football match.
I know very little but I would imagine when the discussion ref refunds took place the question “is there any chance” was asked of the were that be and probably answered hence the whole process of refunds was rather quick
 

zorro

First Team
@jamesOB

I am not a denier. The virus exists, let me clarify my position on that before it gets out of hand.

I am questioning the recordings of the deaths.

Those that died BECAUSE of C19. Singular cause.

Those that died WITH C19. Multiple causes.

Bottom line, I do not trust this government one iota. They have a history of Lies, Hypocrisy (Cummins, etc), Favouritism, etc.

In Boris We Trust!! :rolleyes:
I think it is fair to question the death statistics as defining a cause of death is not straightforward, even with a post mortem. It is also difficult, if not impossible, to draw firm conclusions from death statistics (in particular over a short term) - at best you can infer certain trends in medium to long term (eg reduced infant mortality due to medical advancement or reduced mortality due to less people smoking).

If we had better data, we'd segment deaths as JD suggests. I think the ONS recently reported 91% of Coid19 deaths had an underlying health problem. But even in these cases there could be differences eg someone going into hospital with a serious heart problem, contracting Covid19 whilst in hospital and then dying. Alternatively, you could have someone who contracts a bad case of Covid19 who dies in hospital and whilst in hospital they find he/she has a lung disease. Persons in both cases die with comorbidity, inc Covid19, but I'd suggest primary cause was only correct for the latter.

Whilst on the subject of better data, I think the reporting of positive test results as "cases" is scandalous. As a bare minimum these results need splitting between positives with symptoms and positives without symptoms. Not doing this does make you think there is a mind control agenda.

And as for trust, well mine disappeared in early April and I'm ashamed to say I voted for these bar stewards.
 

pnewortham

Forum Patron
Patron
I think it is fair to question the death statistics as defining a cause of death is not straightforward, even with a post mortem. It is also difficult, if not impossible, to draw firm conclusions from death statistics (in particular over a short term) - at best you can infer certain trends in medium to long term (eg reduced infant mortality due to medical advancement or reduced mortality due to less people smoking).

If we had better data, we'd segment deaths as JD suggests. I think the ONS recently reported 91% of Coid19 deaths had an underlying health problem. But even in these cases there could be differences eg someone going into hospital with a serious heart problem, contracting Covid19 whilst in hospital and then dying. Alternatively, you could have someone who contracts a bad case of Covid19 who dies in hospital and whilst in hospital they find he/she has a lung disease. Persons in both cases die with comorbidity, inc Covid19, but I'd suggest primary cause was only correct for the latter.

Whilst on the subject of better data, I think the reporting of positive test results as "cases" is scandalous. As a bare minimum these results need splitting between positives with symptoms and positives without symptoms. Not doing this does make you think there is a mind control agenda.

And as for trust, well mine disappeared in early April and I'm ashamed to say I voted for these bar stewards.
Hallelujah. (the bit in bold)
 

BenPearsonIsGod

Advisor to the Owner
Given what Oliver Dowden didn't say on his interview this morning on the BBC was a clear indicator there is no plans to even look at this area until cases reduce which doesn't look any time soon.
Did he talk about whether he had a good time at the Ballet yesterday? He’s a hypocritical prick.
 

dawsonsjs

Reserve
I don't expect politicians to give scientific explanations...politicians are experts on nothing except having a view on how others should live their lives.

Whilst it does seem contradictory going ahead with some indoor events at least to date there have been no large scale ones...nothing comparable to even a 20% Champ football fixture and none, of which I am aware, in areas with high and growing Covid rates..

You can make what you will of clinical stats all the time...they can only ever be guidance at the beginning of the process someone is interpreting clinical data and you can never expect everyone to hold the same view,

I don't agree that reporting Covid should be divided between those showing symptoms and those not doing so......for a start only those showing symptoms should be seeking tests and even if this is not the case there is no way of knowing, at the time of testing, if the person goes on to develop symptoms given what we know about the incubation period for this virus.
 

norky84

Advisor to the Owner
I thought it was noticeable at the briefing this morning they made a point of people shouting or singing being a way of the virus being spread. Which obviously happens at Football games.

However, surely at Deepdale 250 people per stand can be seated in such a way that this is avoidable?
 

dawsonsjs

Reserve
Sorry should have qualified my second para above..the London Palladium event had 700 people (30%) capacity in a 2,200 seater theatre.....masks were compulsory, temperatures taken, seats allocated, even door handles were changed to ones with ions that kill bacteria. Personally I absolutely agree that it appears totally unbalanced and wrong allowing this to go ahead.....but the comparison I was seeking to make is with , say, an average 20% gate being allowed into a Champ ground..that would give gates of around the 4,000 to 5,000 mark at most clubs....and spread out making matters more difficult to control but using the same concourses, exits etc.
 

wld

Forum Patron
Patron
Sorry should have qualified my second para above..the London Palladium event had 700 people (30%) capacity in a 2,200 seater theatre.....masks were compulsory, temperatures taken, seats allocated, even door handles were changed to ones with ions that kill bacteria. Personally I absolutely agree that it appears totally unbalanced and wrong allowing this to go ahead.....but the comparison I was seeking to make is with , say, an average 20% gate being allowed into a Champ ground..that would give gates of around the 4,000 to 5,000 mark at most clubs....and spread out making matters more difficult to control but using the same concourses, exits etc.

But surely the people at The Palladium last night were using the same exits etc? I’ve been in a lot of theatres over the years, including that one, and the exits and entrances of the kind of theatre it is are at least as crowded as an average concourse at at the theatre - bear in mind many of them only have entrances at the back. Football clubs were going to take temperatures, door handles aren’t an issue, masks could be compulsory, we already have allocated seats. The way I’m thinking today is theatre and cinema shouldn't be allowed either but there is absolutely no logic to the current exclusion of outdoor at the same time as inclusion of indoor events.

Dowden also said travelling to and from the games was an issue. Does he think theatre goers teleport?
 

pne4ever

Manager
Dr Hillary on Good Morning Britain today stated you are far more likely to catch the virus indoors than outsider.
Government listening to medical experts 😒 Yeh but only when their advice suits their agenda.
Got to believe there's much more to this than we are aware of 🤔
 

Tuesday Nights

Forum Patron
Patron
Look
I don't expect politicians to give scientific explanations...politicians are experts on nothing except having a view on how others should live their lives.

Whilst it does seem contradictory going ahead with some indoor events at least to date there have been no large scale ones...nothing comparable to even a 20% Champ football fixture and none, of which I am aware, in areas with high and growing Covid rates..

You can make what you will of clinical stats all the time...they can only ever be guidance at the beginning of the process someone is interpreting clinical data and you can never expect everyone to hold the same view,

I don't agree that reporting Covid should be divided between those showing symptoms and those not doing so......for a start only those showing symptoms should be seeking tests and even if this is not the case there is no way of knowing, at the time of testing, if the person goes on to develop symptoms given what we know about the incubation period for this virus.
 

Final Stand

Forum Patron
Patron
Dr Hillary on Good Morning Britain today stated you are far more likely to catch the virus indoors than outsider.
Government listening to medical experts 😒 Yeh but only when their advice suits their agenda.
Got to believe there's much more to this than we are aware of 🤔
More alarmingly the government are now not acting on the advice of the scientists, they are taking a punt on the nations future health.
 

dawsonsjs

Reserve
I agree with you WLD it is contradictory...but , and I'm glad it's occurring, it's apparent that the government has recognised the devastating impact Covid has had on cultural life...theatres, community groups etc that have taken years to build up stood to go out of existence with a large loss of jobs. Yesterday there was a handout of several £ millions to keep them going.

How can football be seen to be in desperate need to keep it going given that in the window Prem clubs spent over £1 billion on transfers and even the average wage in L2 is between £40 and £50,000 a year? Not exactly minimum wage is it?

It's obviously difficult for the government trying to have some balance between opening up the economy and keeping control of the virus...I think it's impossible to cover every contingency and not have some inconsistencies...but there's no excuse for blatant ones like the Palladium.

I think it should come down to the R rate..if under control then begin to gradually open up...I suppose it could be said that this is what was happening before a further clampdown was required.

But, returning to the thread, a petition of this sort will simply be put in the bin in the current circumstances. ...and it should be as well.
 

MrBoomBoom

Manager
But, returning to the thread, a petition of this sort will simply be put in the bin in the current circumstances. ...and it should be as well.
In your opinion...

Putting the whole COVID debate to one side, I'm fairly certain as Norky mentions above, the club could easily accommodate 250 fans per stand, with all the relevant safety measures in place. In fact, I suspect that would be even safer then your average workplace right now.

You're just another one of those with obsessed COVID tunnel vision, completely ignoring the other impact's this may be having on people, such as mental health for starters.
 

Delaney

Forum Patron
Patron
In your opinion...

Putting the whole COVID debate to one side, I'm fairly certain as Norky mentions above, the club could easily accommodate 250 fans per stand, with all the relevant safety measures in place. In fact, I suspect that would be even safer then your average workplace right now.

You're just another one of those with obsessed COVID tunnel vision, completely ignoring the other impact's this may be having on people, such as mental health for starters.
One of the most annoying things about the current situation is that most of the things that are closed are actually safer than your average workplace, it's just that the government's fine with exposing us all to the virus as long as we're working and making money for one of their rich mates. No coincidence that pubs that serve food can stay open in Liverpool given the fact that Mr Wetherspoons Tim Martin has donated money to the Tory party.
 
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