Political Correctness

paddysr

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That I didn't know - it's been a while since I followed the debate. I have been an active supporter of trans rights for many years, but the actions of a vocal and obnoxious minority sadly made me become less and less interested in recent times.
The feminist movement against trans rights is the one that upsets me the most.

As you know I actually don't have any problem with people sharing their opinions however despicable I find them but if they are prepared to share them they also have to be prepared to get called out on them and face whatever repercussions that they are due.
 

Sepp Blatter

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The feminist movement against trans rights is the one that upsets me the most.

As you know I actually don't have any problem with people sharing their opinions however despicable I find them but if they are prepared to share them they also have to be prepared to get called out on them and face whatever repercussions that they are due.
Agreed - and within that debate, sadly, a few zealots are creating big problems. At some point, your rights end and someone else's start. That's a subtle but important philosophy that too many progressives no longer understand.

The problem is that it depends how far you go with the repercussions. Trying to demand that people are not allowed to speak at universities or elsewhere, or simply trying to drown out debate is something I don't care for (what about the right of others to listen to someone speak?).

In fact, it goes against everything I stand for, which is why I have found myself gradually disengaging from the left in recent times. There is a growing nastiness and intolerance that pushes me away. I'm far from being the only libertarian leftie feeling like that.

I have seen a lot of nastiness online, where some of the more militant activists have a tendency to go too far - doxxing, trying to shut down people's businesses, and organising pile ons. This goes much further than famous people like JK Rowling - less prominent people are feeling the full force of this hurricane of righteous anger.
 

paddysr

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Agreed - and within that debate, sadly, a few zealots are creating big problems. At some point, your rights end and someone else's start. That's a subtle but important philosophy that too many progressives no longer understand.

The problem is that it depends how far you go with the repercussions. Trying to demand that people are not allowed to speak at universities or elsewhere, or simply trying to drown out debate is something I don't care for (what about the right of others to listen to someone speak?).

In fact, it goes against everything I stand for, which is why I have found myself gradually disengaging from the left in recent times. There is a growing nastiness and intolerance that pushes me away. I'm far from being the only libertarian leftie feeling like that.

I have seen a lot of nastiness online, where some of the more militant activists have a tendency to go too far - doxxing, trying to shut down people's businesses, and organising pile ons. This goes much further than famous people like JK Rowling - less prominent people are feeling the full force of this hurricane of righteous anger.
It is a balancing act.

I have more issues with people who try to obscure their discriminatory views behind cries of free speech. I'd much sooner someone come out and say yes these are my views.

People have a right to think how they want but if their views aren't widely acceptable then they must accept that those views are going to be challenged.
 

Sepp Blatter

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It is a balancing act.

I have more issues with people who try to obscure their discriminatory views behind cries of free speech. I'd much sooner someone come out and say yes these are my views.

People have a right to think how they want but if their views aren't widely acceptable then they must accept that those views are going to be challenged.
The problem is that the discriminatory views are becoming just as apparent on the left - and there is a growing tendency to class free speech as only things that they agree with.

When I first became politically active, over 30 years ago, the accusations that people were hiding discriminatory views behind free speech were hurled at the left from people on the right, and authoritarians like Tipper Gore as they tried to censor punk, rap, and metal music, restrict access to books, or stop people watching certain films. That's why I became a very passionate defender of free speech.

Now, we have turned full circle, and those trying to prevent people hearing views they find questionable are more often on the left. That saddens me deeply.
 

paddysr

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The problem is that the discriminatory views are becoming just as apparent on the left - and there is a growing tendency to class free speech as only things that they agree with.

When I first became politically active, over 30 years ago, the accusations that people were hiding discriminatory views behind free speech were hurled at the left from people on the right, and authoritarians like Tipper Gore as they tried to censor punk, rap, and metal music, restrict access to books, or stop people watching certain films. That's why I became a very passionate defender of free speech.

Now, we have turned full circle, and those trying to prevent people hearing views they find questionable are more often on the left. That saddens me deeply.
There are certain views that we can all agree are questionable though if they target a specific group of individuals based on gender, race, sexuality then they deserve to be challenged.
 

Sepp Blatter

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There are certain views that we can all agree are questionable though if they target a specific group of individuals based on gender, race, sexuality then they deserve to be challenged.
I don't have a problem with challenging views - that's what free speech is all about. It's when that challenge moves into making laws (and the effects on social media), or becomes about challenging the rights of others to free speech and expression through intimidation or attempting to no platform.

It's about defining what is questionable - what is questionable to you might not be to me - and vice versa.

Some on the left might support activists demanding that Jordan Peterson or Dave Rubin are no platformed, and cheer on protesters disrupting their debates. They have the legal right to do this, of course, but does that make it the right thing to do. You then lose the moral ground to complain if a group of far right protesters try to do the same at a pro-choice speech or pro-Palestinian rally.
 
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Sepp Blatter

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Don't know if you have listened to any of Jello Biafra's spoken word stuff, Pad, but it pretty much lays out where I am coming from with this - and why I place so much importance on free speech:


As you know, he is one of the most committed anti-fascists you will find - yet, he believes in the First Amendment:

 

paddysr

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Don't know if you have listened to any of Jello Biafra's spoken word stuff, Pad, but it pretty much lays out where I am coming from with this - and why I place so much importance on free speech:


As you know, he is one of the most committed anti-fascists you will find - yet, he believes in the First Amendment:

I'll have a listen tomorrow cheers
 

Sepp Blatter

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I'll have a listen tomorrow cheers
Uploaded the wrong video and have edited - The High Priest of Harmful Matter. Been many years since I listened to it, so will refresh my memory tomorrow. You can skip the first bit - the censorship stuff starts about 11 minutes in.
 
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Mer5eywhite

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Is this my age, is it because I have inbuilt prejudices?

I do not believe that Trans Women should be competing in womens Sports.

Also WTF does, "Cancel culture," actually mean?

I personally think you are right. I also think that the argument against them competing in women’s sport is watertight. That doesn’t mean I’m transphobic or that you are transphobic. It doesn’t mean that you are oppressing them, however there seem to be plenty of people who would say otherwise and that’s OK but if you are de-platformed or similar because of that opinion then something has gone a bit wrong.

It is also about language and avoiding inflammatory turns of phrase. In my opinion a trans woman is not a woman, they can approximate to womanhood and if living their lives like that makes them happier then that’s great. However at some point their demands to be viewed as a woman will infringe on the rights of others. Competing as a woman with all the advantages of the additional leverage found in a male skeletal frame is one of those impossible demands.
 

Liberation

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The feminist movement against trans rights is the one that upsets me the most.

As you know I actually don't have any problem with people sharing their opinions however despicable I find them but if they are prepared to share them they also have to be prepared to get called out on them and face whatever repercussions that they are due.


And so should you Padster.... If a women/man in the wrong body has an identity crisis then I'd suggest that the last thing on their minds would be competing in sports, especially professional ones........ Has it ever occured to you that this might be a " human" bag of bullshit?.... All of a sudden we have the ability to " tweak " things ( gender). so we do so?........ What's next Paddy?
 

Korol

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The feminist movement against trans rights is the one that upsets me the most.

As you know I actually don't have any problem with people sharing their opinions however despicable I find them but if they are prepared to share them they also have to be prepared to get called out on them and face whatever repercussions that they are due.

But you shouldn't face repercussions for calling a female a female?
 

sliper

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Also WTF does, "Cancel culture," actually mean?

I think they are used as a noun rather than a verb,
 
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Ando60

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Is this my age, is it because I have inbuilt prejudices?

I do not believe that Trans Women should be competing in womens Sports.

Also WTF does, "Cancel culture," actually mean?
I asked the same thing when I read about it yesterday..... it’s gone way over my head
 

Sepp Blatter

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And so should you Padster.... If a women/man in the wrong body has an identity crisis then I'd suggest that the last thing on their minds would be competing in sports, especially professional ones........ Has it ever occured to you that this might be a " human" bag of bullshit?.... All of a sudden we have the ability to " tweak " things ( gender). so we do so?........ What's next Paddy?
The saddest part of that was the accusations hurled at Martina Navratilova, who comes across as a very nice person. Because she felt that trans women competing in women's sport was cheating, she was called a transphobe, accused of spreading hate speech, and dropped by an LGBT athletes group.

It is ridiculous - whether you agree or not, people are allowed to have an opinion about a subject that needs to be debated.
 

Realistic

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The feminist movement against trans rights is the one that upsets me the most.

As you know I actually don't have any problem with people sharing their opinions however despicable I find them but if they are prepared to share them they also have to be prepared to get called out on them and face whatever repercussions that they are due.

Goodness me. You don't see the problem with making statements like that ? You are assuming that your opinion is right, that their position (the trans movement) is right. And that punishment is therefore in order. Bizarre, Paddy.

I don't have a problem with people wanting to change sex if they are very unhappy. What I do have a problem with is silly talk like "women with ovaries" ie meaning that if a man has a sex change he is only different to a woman because he doesn't have ovaries. And that is just nonsense.
 

paddysr

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Goodness me. You don't see the problem with making statements like that ? You are assuming that your opinion is right, that their position (the trans movement) is right. And that punishment is therefore in order. Bizarre, Paddy.

I don't have a problem with people wanting to change sex if they are very unhappy. What I do have a problem with is silly talk like "women with ovaries" ie meaning that if a man has a sex change he is only different to a woman because he doesn't have ovaries. And that is just nonsense.

It isnt nonsense. There are more than 2 sexes and multiple genders. Science has moved past the idea of the XX XY sex determination system but unfortunately society hasn't.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it nonsense.

And yes, people with views outside of what is determined to be socially acceptable deserve to be challenged and I will never apologise for that.
 

Realistic

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It isnt nonsense. There are more than 2 sexes and multiple genders. Science has moved past the idea of the XX XY sex determination system but unfortunately society hasn't.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it nonsense.

And yes, people with views outside of what is determined to be socially acceptable deserve to be challenged and I will never apologise for that.
Nope and nope again. Sorry, but you are talking nonsense ! There are two sexes, male and female, designed either by god (if you believe in a god or designed by nature) Transexuals do not become biological women or men, just because they have had an operation.

You can't change the biological nature of a human being with a surgeon's knife and hormone therapy. I don't have a problem with transsexuals but you're not selling that nonsense to me, Paddy.
 

Mer5eywhite

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It isnt nonsense. There are more than 2 sexes and multiple genders. Science has moved past the idea of the XX XY sex determination system but unfortunately society hasn't.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it nonsense.

And yes, people with views outside of what is determined to be socially acceptable deserve to be challenged and I will never apologise for that.
In the natural world, using the criterion of production of reproductive cells, there are two sexes: the female sex, capable of producing ovum and the male sex, which produces sperm.

So if you think there are multiple genders or wish to apply that theory to sport then you will need to make sport non-binary, in a similar way that Paralympic sport contains many narrow categories.

How can you apply your non-binary definitions to the current binary, able-bodied, sporting arrangement?
 
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