Post Brexit Britain

PNEESSEX

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Ok we'll see in a few months.. going with your argument.. why would Gove want trade barriers ?

If he said to business.. "don't worry I'm confident the EU will come to their senses and negotiate a genuine FTA ?" You'd be criticising him and saying like Portis "we can't have our cake and eat it" and he is being unrealistic.. its not going to happen.

If he says "prepare for restrictions on trade" he must want them.

He can't win either way...heads... he can't get an FTA.. tails he therefore must want trade barriers.
This is what he said


This is what Government are saying


It's inevitable because we are leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union. These are his actual words as quoted on .gov.uk

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Michael Gove said:


The UK will be outside the single market and outside the customs union, so we will have to be ready for the customs procedures and regulatory checks that will inevitably follow.

As a result of that we will be in a stronger position, not just to make sure that our economy succeeds outside the European Union but that we are in a position to take advantage of new trading relationships with the rest of the world.
FTA or not, outside these arrangements, completely frictionless trade is not possible
 
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raefil

raefil

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This is what he said


This is what Government are saying


It's inevitable because we are leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union.
its the EUs fault though :unsure:
 

sliper

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This is what he said


This is what Government are saying


It's inevitable because we are leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union. These are his actual words as quoted on .gov.uk

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Michael Gove said:



FTA or not, outside these arrangements, completely frictionless trade is not possible
It's semantics.. Gove said he wanted trade to be "as frictionless as possible" but that there would be additional checks. You interpret this as him wanting to impose unnecessary trade restrictions and barriers.

A mate exports machines to the USA and Germany.. he says trade checks with the US aren't a barrier and he has little fear of similar with the EU.

The Guardian is a well known EU supporting rag.. safe to say they never wanted us to Leave... and will spin every word to say "I told you so".
They are hardly impartial on the subject.
 

PNEESSEX

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It's semantics.. Gove said he wanted trade to be "as frictionless as possible" but that there would be additional checks. You interpret this as him wanting to impose unnecessary trade restrictions and barriers.

A mate exports machines to the USA and Germany.. he says trade checks with the US aren't a barrier and he has little fear of similar with the EU.

The Guardian is a well known EU supporting rag.. safe to say they never wanted us to Leave... and will spin every word to say "I told you so".
They are hardly impartial on the subject.
Is .Gov.uk a Labour supporting website? Did Gove not say this?

It isnt semantics at all. There will be friction. Friction means costs whether you accept it or not. If there are increased costs, who pays for them?

This is what Gove said, as quoted by Gov.uk

The UK will be outside the single market and outside the customs union, so we will have to be ready for the customs procedures and regulatory checks that will inevitably follow.

If that's not friction I dont know what is.
 

PNEESSEX

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It's semantics.. Gove said he wanted trade to be "as frictionless as possible" but that there would be additional checks. You interpret this as him wanting to impose unnecessary trade restrictions and barriers.

A mate exports machines to the USA and Germany.. he says trade checks with the US aren't a barrier and he has little fear of similar with the EU.

The Guardian is a well known EU supporting rag.. safe to say they never wanted us to Leave... and will spin every word to say "I told you so".
They are hardly impartial on the subject.
If we are going to go down the "my mate says line", an acquaintance who lives a few doors down the road owns and runs a massive fruit and veg wholesaler that imports from all over the world and distributes to lots of retailers. He reckons that imposing checks on goods from the EU, if as onerous as the checks on stuff he brings in from non EU sources, will increase his costs by at least 5%. He fully intends to maintain his margin, so what will the impact be of that on the consumer?
 

Regardless

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Why would any government any where try and restrict mutually beneficial trade between nations ?
Ok but define “mutually beneficial trade” - like so many Brexiteers, you seem to expect to eat that cake. - and have it.

We have left the club. On the surface, whilst a complete FTA might be very beneficial for both the EU and the UK, the 27 EU members would suffer if they breach the fundamental principles and rules (rules that we helped write) upon which free trade within the Single Market is carried out.
Brexit supporters continue to chase unicorns - and you, and others, keep stomping your feet when the EU points out some obvious, but inconvenient facts!

You’re all pretty consistent though. You’ve always expected the EU to bend over and be shafted. You’ve always accused the EU of intransigence when they say that we can’t have the benefits if we don’t play by the well-established rules.
 

sliper

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Ok but define “mutually beneficial trade” - like so many Brexiteers, you seem to expect to eat that cake. - and have it.

We have left the club. On the surface, whilst a complete FTA might be very beneficial for both the EU and the UK, the 27 EU members would suffer if they breach the fundamental principles and rules (rules that we helped write) upon which free trade within the Single Market is carried out.
Why not ? Does the EU have FTA's with other countries outside the EU ?

I think the key word in this discussion is "won't" not "can't".
Beyond politics there is no practical reason the UK can't continue to trade in much the same way as it did before.

If we want to sell stuff into the EU we have to abide by their rules and standards.. if we want to sell stuff into the US then we have to abide by their rules.. and vice versa. We do this already. We don't have to accept EU rules on anything other than those goods intended for the EU market.
What's the problem ?

If there is a problem with say rapid transit of fruit and veg.. I'm not sure Spanish producers watching their stuff rot on the quayside at Calais are going to put up with that. Why would the UK hold up Spanish fruit and veg products needed in the UK ? Paperwork can be done largely online.. with occasional physical checks.

if we can successfully conduct trade and increase it.. outside the EU it does call into question "the purpose of the pan continental political structure" ?
 
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Regardless

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Why not ? Does the EU have FTA's with other countries outside the EU ?

I think the key word in this discussion is "won't" not "can't".
Beyond politics there is no practical reason the UK can't continue to trade in much the same way as it did before.

If we want to sell stuff into the EU we have to abide by their rules and standards.. if we want to sell stuff into the US then we have to abide by their rules.. and vice versa. We do this already. We don't have to accept EU rules on anything other than those goods intended for the EU market.
What's the problem ?

If there is a problem with say rapid transit of fruit and veg.. I'm not sure Spanish producers watching their stuff rot on the quayside at Calais are going to put up with that. Why would the UK hold up Spanish fruit and veg products needed in the UK ? Paperwork can be done largely online.. with occasional physical checks.
Some fair comment in there. I guess I argued too literally/simplistically. I really take issue with your assertion that the EU doesn’t want an FTA. IMO you, and Brexit politicians, are lining up the blame for any disagreement on the EU - before we’ve really got into discussions.You’re essentially already blaming them for the failure of the talks!
 

sliper

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Some fair comment in there. I guess I argued too literally/simplistically. I really take issue with your assertion that the EU doesn’t want an FTA. IMO you, and Brexit politicians, are lining up the blame for any disagreement on the EU - before we’ve really got into discussions.You’re essentially already blaming them for the failure of the talks!
I was responding to the claim made on here and elsewhere that because "we left the EU club.. we can't have our EU cake and eat it"

I think there will be a decent workable deal.. I think businesses operating both ways across the channel will ensure there is a deal that allows trade to flow.
 

paddysr

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I was responding to the claim made on here and elsewhere that because "we left the EU club.. we can't have our EU cake and eat it"

I think there will be a decent workable deal.. I think businesses operating both ways across the channel will ensure there is a deal that allows trade to flow.
Simple economy of scale suggests that British businesses will get the shittier end of the deal and by proxy British consumers.
 

sliper

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Simple economy of scale suggests that British businesses will get the shittier end of the deal and by proxy British consumers.
A basic misunderstanding of the process of trade negotiations IMO.

The idea of conducting trade talks in the first place is to facilitate not restrict trade.

We have stuff we want to buy from them and sell to them and vice versa..
 
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