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Science

JFK-1

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There must be someone around here who has an interest in general science aside from the current virus dilemma so let's try to get a little discussion going. To kick it off I will ask a question I saw recently on another forum. The title of that topic was "We are not alone.... Maybe"

They were contemplating intelligent alien life and whether it's visiting the earth. My own opinion is there may be intelligent alien life with a high likelihood if we consider the universe as a whole. But visiting the earth no chance. I will copy/paste the post I made on the topic.

When I was growing up there were an estimated 50 billion galaxies. The most recent estimate is two trillion galaxies and since the number has always grown as better telescopes come online I expect it to continue to grow.

The Milky Way, not a large galaxy by any standards, contains between 100 and 400 billion stars. It's difficult to judge the number accurately in part because we're trying to look at it from the inside.

But let's call it the median 200 billion and consider that a galactic average throughout the universe. So now we're looking at 2 trillion times 200 billion stars. And when you consider there are a lot more planets and moons than that the numbers are staggering. Incomprehensible.

It's suspected that life on Earth began relatively soon after the formation period when the planet had settled and cooled off. And in fact it's further suspected that it probably occurred more than once. It's thought that the first instances would have been wiped out during a heavy bombardment period as the solar system planets cleared their orbits of remaining proto-planetary debris.

This involved collisions in which some potential planets would have been destroyed. It's thought just such a collision between the Earth and a Mars sized object created our moon. And it's further thought these collisions are also the reason that while most asteroids and meteorites are rocky some are largely iron based. These much rarer iron based meteorites are the debris of an iron core which formed at the centre of a planet sized object which was then destroyed by a massive collision.

The bombardment/collision period involved some very large objects some of them hundreds of miles in diameter and even moon or planet sized. An impact from an object a few hundred miles in diameter would reset the planet. The entire surface down to a considerable depth would be molten in the aftermath which would effectively sterilise it.

If this suspicion that life began on multiple occasions is correct then since the ingredients of life are everywhere out there we would have to further suspect that it's probably relatively common on a suitable planet within the 'Goldilocks zone' of a suitable star. Not too far away to be frozen not too close to be fried.

My own suspicion is that given the numbers mentioned above it would be astonishing if there were no other life in the Milky Way far less the universe. And i'm talking about life on any scale such as even bacteria. Just has to be out there in my view.

Then there's intelligent life which is a whole other matter. The Earth is estimated to be around 4.5 billion years old and while it's thought life began relatively quickly it took almost all of that time for intelligent life capable of human level technology to appear.

Humans are pretty much brand new on a geological time scale and weren't guaranteed to make it even after the advent of high intelligence.

There's an idea called the Toba catastrophe theory suggesting that a bottleneck of human population occurred around 70,000 years ago proposing that the human population was reduced to perhaps as little as 10,000 individuals. That's verging close to extinction but luckily we made it.

The bottleneck has been linked to the Toba supervolcano in Indonesia which erupted triggering an environmental catastrophe that could have been the end of us.

So with all that in mind my suspicion is that life may be relatively common but high intelligence much rarer. But then again with the staggering numbers involved I don't think for a moment that humans are unique in that respect. Even if it were a billion to one chance we could still be looking at potentially hundreds of intelligent civilisations in the Milky way alone.

But as for the question of alien visitations to the Earth I don't believe for a moment that has ever happened. A further problem with the proposition of intelligent life is that there's every chance intelligent civilisations have come and gone many times in the lifetime of the Milky Way which is estimated to be one of the older galaxies at around 13 billion years.

I feel that the chances of two intelligent cvilisations existing in the Milky Way at the same time and actually finding each other have to be extremely remote. Even if it happened that two such civilisations did occur at the same time and somehow found each other any contact would be infinitely more likely to be by some form of radio communication.

The distances involved make it highly unlikely that any civilisation would waste resources on a journey that could consume the lifetimes of multiple generations. Entire colonies would have to dispatched in enormous ships containing hundreds or even thousands of beings most of whom would never live to see the journeys end.

There are no aliens visiting the Earth and there are unlikely to ever be any. I think it's telling that since the world became smothered in cameras on phones UFO reports have actually declined not increased.

Something like 'miracles' no less. When there was no way to record it miracles were happening all the time. Now that there is a way to record it we have zero evidence of miracles. UFO's and visiting aliens are likely in the same category. Wishful thinking.
 
My own opinion is there may be intelligent alien life with a high likelihood if we consider the universe as a whole.

We don't know how big the universe is other than potentially infinite so we could either consider an application of Schrodinger (we do not know what is in the universe so can make the binary deduction that there is and isn't alien life out there) or probability (if the universe is infinitely large, then there is an almost certain chance that there does exist alien life out there)
 
There must be someone around here who has an interest in general science aside from the current virus dilemma so let's try to get a little discussion going. To kick it off I will ask a question I saw recently on another forum. The title of that topic was "We are not alone.... Maybe"

They were contemplating intelligent alien life and whether it's visiting the earth. My own opinion is there may be intelligent alien life with a high likelihood if we consider the universe as a whole. But visiting the earth no chance. I will copy/paste the post I made on the topic.

This is a subject that's always fascinated me.
The numbers trying to explain the size of the universe and distances involved ie. the estimated diameter of the known universe is frankly incomprehensible.
Imo, there simply must be other life forms out there. Intelligent or otherwise.
Highly unlikely we"ll ever have "first contact" unless it is possible to travel faster than light.
I can't remember the exact numbers, but travelling at the speed of light would take something like 100,000 years to traverse the length of the Milky Way and as you point out, there are billions more galaxies out there.
The observable universe would take 90 billion years.
Makes your head explode doesn't it.
The age of the universe might have seen the rise and fall of millions of super advanced societies, far more advanced than us.
1783 saw the first manned balloon flight. 240 years later and we've stealth fighter jets costing £150m a pop. What will we be capable of in another 240 years?
So, if there have been super advanced societies in the universe possibly hundreds of thousands of years more advanced than us , what had they achieved? The fact remains however IF light speed can't be beaten then we'll never know.
One theory is that there are indeed aliens but not from another world.
Many sightings have been over water and indeed craft entering and exiting the oceans.
Nonsense? Possibly, but bearing in mind 95% of our oceans remain unexplored then who's to say there aren't subterranean societies.
Fascinating stuff if you're prepared to open your mind.:alien:
 
I've got aliens in my garden. Them fly things that come right up to you rubbing their hands. They are sussing us out and reporting back I'm telling you. They monitor you all the time, why? Why would they do that?

That's what my money is on!
 
The age of the universe might have seen the rise and fall of millions of super advanced societies, far more advanced than us.

And to muddy the issue yet more there are further complicating factors to be taken into consideration. It's a fact that over 99% of all life which has ever existed on Earth has already come and gone. Extinct and the chances are we will in time follow suit.

The only way to avoid this would be to get off this planet and spread out to other planets/moons because putting all your eggs in one basket namely the Earth is certain extinction along the way.

There have always been catastrophic events such as large impacts from space and super volcano events right here on Earth. These events haven't stopped simply because we're here, they will happen again and it could be pretty much anytime.

So the only way to dodge extinction is to spread out to as many locations as possible and currently that's beyond us. We could scarcely survive indefinitely on our close neighbour Mars far less anything further out.

And to complicate it even further let's say there had been an intelligent civilisation which managed to survive even just a million years beyond our current state of technology. A million years is the blink of an eye in geologic terms and even less in cosmic terms.

But when you compare our technology to that of just a hundred years ago the mind boggles to think what could be possible if another million years of progress were feasible. The creation of highly advanced artificial intelligence would be certain. Even now I would expect we could create terminator level AI in a hundred or couple of hundred years from now at most far less a million years.

Now i'm not suggesting that AI would destroy us terminator style. What i'm saying is that it would be far more adaptable and capable of surviving even the harshest of environmental catastrophes. It would persist long after we are gone.

I feel there's every bit as much chance of there being AI out there somewhere as there is of biological intelligence and perhaps even more so. Somewhere along the way some intelligent civilizations must have created an advanced AI that outlived them.

And all it would need to spend thousands of years exploring around the galaxy would be an energy source which would presumably be a small detail for such advanced technology.
 
Have you ever watched the film "Forbidden Planet ".
A 1950's production and imo, way advanced of it's time.
A planet visited by humans in the 23rd century having got there travelling at speeds in excess of light. They discover the planet was once home to The Krell, a civilisation long dead some 200,000 years before who were wiped out by the "Id", their own sub conscious desires.
Great film with Leslie Nielsen (pre Police Squad and The Naked Gun).
 
Have you ever watched the film "Forbidden Planet ".
A 1950's production and imo, way advanced of it's time.
A planet visited by humans in the 23rd century having got there travelling at speeds in excess of light. They discover the planet was once home to The Krell, a civilisation long dead some 200,000 years before who were wiped out by the "Id", their own sub conscious desires.
Great film with Leslie Nielsen (pre Police Squad and The Naked Gun).

I have seen it. The origin of 'Robbie the robot'
 
We don't know how big the universe is other than potentially infinite so we could either consider an application of Schrodinger (we do not know what is in the universe so can make the binary deduction that there is and isn't alien life out there) or probability (if the universe is infinitely large, then there is an almost certain chance that there does exist alien life out there)

You don't think a minimum estimate of 2 trillion galaxies is sufficiently large to deduce a likelihood of life elsewhere?
 
I’ve a friend who I know very well who once revealed that he had unmistakably seen a fairly “classical” ufo at close quarters, in daylight.
The only explanations are that either it was real or he had some sort of delusion- because he was totally matter of fact. I tend towards the latter but that makes me feel disloyal to that friend.
 
You don't think a minimum estimate of 2 trillion galaxies is sufficiently large to deduce a likelihood of life elsewhere?

Nope, because if the world is infinitely large, 2 trillion galaxies may be too small of a sample size
 
I’ve a friend who I know very well who once revealed that he had unmistakably seen a fairly “classical” ufo at close quarters, in daylight.
The only explanations are that either it was real or he had some sort of delusion- because he was totally matter of fact. I tend towards the latter but that makes me feel disloyal to that friend.
Similar experience to the two I've had.
One close to my house when I was looking out of the kitchen window. A very bright, sun ( no it wasn't the sun)like object stationary in the sky. Difficult to establish size and distance. It was there for probably just a few seconds, seemed to then expand, pulsate even brighter then gone.
My second "encounter" was when driving to Chorley, passing what was BWFC training ground.
I looked up and saw a metallic like cylindrical object. Again, size and distance was difficult to make out but it wasn't small.
I took my eyes off the shape briefly to check the road ahead but when I looked back to where the object was, it was no longer visible.
Both very weird and I hadn't a clue what they were.
 
Nope, because if the world is infinitely large, 2 trillion galaxies may be too small of a sample size
Scientists predict a minimum of 200 billion galaxies in the observable universe including 10 to the 23rd power planets = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets.
In the Milky Way alone scientists predict 40 billion earth-sized planets orbiting in the habitable zone.
Just mind blowing. 🤯
Imo, there just must be other life forms out there and possibly millions/billions. Now as to ever seeing hard evidence of this is something else entirely. The distances involved and the time they would take to travel them would suggest we'll never know.
 
Scientists predict a minimum of 200 billion galaxies in the observable universe including 10 to the 23rd power planets = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets.
In the Milky Way alone scientists predict 40 billion earth-sized planets orbiting in the habitable zone.
Just mind blowing. 🤯
Imo, there just must be other life forms out there and possibly millions/billions. Now as to ever seeing hard evidence of this is something else entirely. The distances involved and the time they would take to travel them would suggest we'll never know.

I don't expect to ever be coming face to face with aliens. What's far more likely is discovering an alien signal of some kind or alternatively they may discover us in that fashion. But as for aggressive aliens coming to take over that's fantasy. We have nothing they would bother wasting the resources on.

The same materials, metals, water etc, we have here on Earth are everywhere. They're in asteroids which if you were a sufficiently advanced civilisation would be far easier to capture and mine/exploit than some crazy millennia long journey to take some distant aliens planet. Chances are they would be passing countless suitable vacant planets on that journey.

If we had the technology to cross stellar distances we would have the technology to engineer local real estate like Venus and Mars to make them suitable for us. And any other planet in a suitable position around another star too. No one needs to be taking the planet of an alien civilisation for resources.

Intelligent civilisations existing at the same time and actually finding each other are likely to be so rare the finding in itself would be a far greater prize than anything else could be.
 
New projects broaden the search for alien signals from space

Estimating the chance of getting a message from life beyond Earth, say within the next decade, isn’t easy. Even the best experts are reluctant to offer precise odds.

“Anybody who gave you a figure would be talking about religion, not science,” says Jill Tarter, the astronomer who has spent most of her life pursuing the quest to find signals from alien life.

And even if you did get an estimate for that probability, it wouldn’t mean much. (After all, the San Francisco 49ers had a 95 percent chance of winning the Super Bowl with under 8 minutes to go in the game — and still lost.)

But however small the probability of seeing a signal from E.T. is, those chances are soon going to be a lot better than they have been in the past.

Sure, after decades of listening, there is still no message. But with more data to sift through, and new technologies with superior search capabilities, odds of hearing from E.T. are rapidly improving. If the probability in the decade 2011–2021 were x percent, it’s going to be 1,000 times x in the following decade, says Andrew Siemion, director of the Berkeley SETI Research Center. (SETI stands for Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence.)

The reason for E.T. optimism stems largely from several new projects in the works, enhanced with advanced methods for discerning an actual message hidden in the static of cosmic cacophony.

Siemion, speaking in Seattle on February 15 at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, reported a new release of data from Breakthrough Listen, a major enterprise for recording radio signals from space. Now available for others to analyze, the data dump contains 2 petabytes of information (to store that much, you’d need 2,000 of today’s typical PCs with their puny 1 terabyte hard drives).

Tarter, chair emeritus for SETI Research at the pioneering SETI Institute, described new search projects in the works at the institute, including Laser SETI. It’s a plan to train 96 cameras at a dozen locations around the world to keep a constant vigil for “intelligent” optical signals from space.

Another key driver of increased optimism is the abundance of places to look for life. Thanks largely to the Kepler space telescope’s successful explorations, astronomers now know of thousands of stars possessing planets — and have spotted dozens of rocky, Earth-like planets orbiting their stars at a distance likely to be temperate enough for liquid water, a hopeful indicator of habitability.

And of course, it is still possible that alien life might be hiding closer to home. While it’s very unlikely that any intelligent life abides in our solar system, microbial biology might be viable on moons such as Enceladus (Saturn) and Europa (Jupiter). Robots equipped with tools to extract microorganisms from alien soil and conduct chemical analysis could search for life on site. In the meantime, land- or space-based telescopes might detect signs of biological activity in the atmosphere of distant planets. Certain combinations of molecules in the right ratio would be surefire signatures of life in action.

“The ultimate breakthrough in exoplanetary science will be the detection of a biosignature in the atmosphere of a rocky habitable-zone exoplanet,” astronomer Nikku Madhusudhan noted last year in the Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics. “Defining a unique biosignature remains a theoretical challenge, but several candidate molecules have been suggested.”

No one molecule (not even oxygen) would be a definite sign of life. But multiple life-related molecules detected in the atmosphere of a planet with other suitable conditions (such as a comfy temperature) would be strong evidence. Under Earth-like conditions, various molecules, such as oxygen, ozone, methane, carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide and ammonia could be taken as indicators of biological activity.

“Though there is no single ideal molecule, the combination of multiple species (e.g., oxygen and methane) may be a potential biosignature under the given conditions,” wrote Madhusudhan, of the University of Cambridge in England. “In this regard, a detection of oxygen and methane and/or nitrous oxide along with liquid water on a habitable-zone planet, i.e., an almost exact Earth analog, may be a sure sign of life.”

Seeking techno-signals
Finding primitive extraterrestrial life would be front-page news (or set a record for clicks), but the grand prize is reserved for the “I” in SETI — intelligent life. SETI searches seek signs of technology produced by extraterrestrial intelligence, most likely in the form of “unnatural” radio waves.

In fact, an alien looking for life in the cosmos might very well spot Earth as inhabited by exactly that method. In the 1990s, Carl Sagan and colleagues took advantage of the Galileo spacecraft’s pass by Earth to probe our planet for telltale signals of our existence. The giveaway was narrow-band radio emissions (abundant signaling at a single radio frequency).

“That as far as we know is an unmistakable indicator of technology, and an unmistakable indicator of life,” Siemion said at the AAAS meeting. “And indeed it is the most detectable signature of life on this planet as viewed from a distant vantage point.”

For now, Earth-based radio telescopes listening to the cosmos might hear a deliberate message, but couldn’t pick up TV shows or other radio-wave “leakage” from alien civilizations. But the Next Generation Very Large Array, now in the planning stage, would have the power to receive such unintentional communication, at least from nearby stars.

Perhaps alien civilizations may make more use of lasers than radio, though, which makes the prospect of Laser SETI appealing. But whether patterns are found in the radio or optical region of the electromagnetic spectrum doesn’t matter — such patterns could reveal intelligent activity regardless of their purpose, Siemion pointed out.

“We simply look for compression of electromagnetic energy in time or in frequency or some kind of modulation that is inconsistent with the astrophysical background or the instrumental background and consistent with something that technology could produce,” he said. “So it doesn’t matter if it’s a laser communication system being used to communicate with a spacecraft in some exoplanet system or it’s a giant laser light show that some very advanced civilization produced for the amusement of all the life in their system.”


In any event, receiving a message would be a monumental revelation about the viability of technological civilizations. Nobody knows whether a society that has developed advanced technology can long survive.

“The lifetime of a technological civilization … is a very difficult thing to predict,” said Siemion. “And of course, looking around at our own civilization you have reason to question what that term might be.”

On the other hand, a signal from space would almost certainly be from a civilization that has existed much longer than ours. (Otherwise the likelihood of listening in at exactly the right time would be prohibitively small.) So merely receiving a message might be considered hope that civilization on Earth might not be doomed after all.

Success in receiving a message raises other issues. For one thing, it’s a real possibility that an alien message is clearly an attempt to communicate, but in a language that no earthling could understand. And understood or not, a message received suggests the need to consider a reply. SETI researchers have long agreed that if a signal is detected, no response would be made until a global consensus had been reached on who will speak for Earth and what they would say. But that agreement is totally unenforceable, Tarter pointed out, and nobody has any idea about how to reach a global consensus on anything. (Perhaps the proper reply would just be “HELP!”)

Still, contemplating a response is for the moment a lesser priority than finding a message in the first place. And that might require help from nonhuman intelligence right here on Earth in the form of advanced computers. Recent developments in artificial intelligence research should soon make machine learning an effective tool in the E.T. search, Tarter said at the AAAS meeting.

“The ability to use machine learning to help us find signals in noise I think is really exciting,” she said. “Historically we’ve asked a machine to tell us if a particular pattern in frequency and time could be found. But now we’re on the brink of being able to say to the machine, ‘Are there any patterns in there?’”

So it’s possible that an artificially intelligent computer might be the first earthling to discern a message from an extraterrestrial. But then we would have to wonder, would a smart machine detecting a message bother to tell us? That might depend on whom (or what) the message was from.

“I think there’s something particularly romantic,” said Siemion, “about the idea of machine learning and artificial intelligence looking for extraterrestrial intelligence which itself might be artificially intelligent.”

 
Richard Dawkins speaking on the likelihood of life elsewhere in the universe and since he's an evolutionary biologist I suppose his views get some additional credibility. He's speaking about a lot more than that in this video but it's primed to start at the relevant point.

 
This video has what I would deem to be a plausible and rational explanation for UFO's and an explanation I have always suspected myself, that they're probably classified military projects. Though the explanation in the video has far greater scope than just that fact. UFO's it says are a manufactured conspiracy of sorts.

The video covers a lot more than that but I have primed it to start at the relevant point.

 
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