Should she be allowed back?

Doyler

Advisor to the Owner
That's an interesting take on it and I agree with a lot of the points you make however it doesn't take into consideration the level of education she may or may not have received around the Q'uran. I know a lot of people who can recite huge passages of it and yet have very little understanding around the meaning of what they are saying.

At 15 I would have gladly gone and joined any number of rebel militias fighting against oppression and dictatorships so it stands to reason that there would have been people similar who would have gone to fight the other side.

I'm not excusing her decision to go to join the state but there is a reason that 15 year olds aren't considered adults.

I still stand by my stance that she should have been brought back, arrested, put on trial and let a court determine her crimes.
Crikey! At 15 I was playing FIFA, tennis, and studying to do as well in my GCSEs as possible. I can't lie - it's never something that crossed my mind.
 

Sepp Blatter

Liz Truss Groupie
Patron
Crikey! At 15 I was playing FIFA, tennis, and studying to do as well in my GCSEs as possible. I can't lie - it's never something that crossed my mind.
A couple of my friends drifted towards the militant side of the animal rights movement when they were that age.

Overall, a just cause, but some of the methods they talked about as they got drawn deeper in were disturbing, and I really didn't like some of the adults they introduced me to in those groups.

Something wasn't right with a few of them - the sort of people who try to twist a person's pity and compassion into becoming violence and hate.
 

Mickypne

Advisor to the Owner
That's an interesting take on it and I agree with a lot of the points you make however it doesn't take into consideration the level of education she may or may not have received around the Q'uran. I know a lot of people who can recite huge passages of it and yet have very little understanding around the meaning of what they are saying.

At 15 I would have gladly gone and joined any number of rebel militias fighting against oppression and dictatorships so it stands to reason that there would have been people similar who would have gone to fight the other side.

I'm not excusing her decision to go to join the state but there is a reason that 15 year olds aren't considered adults.

I still stand by my stance that she should have been brought back, arrested, put on trial and let a court determine her crimes.
Bollox , at 15 you were trying to distinguish whether you where a boy or a kettle. If I was the hone office and saw a comment like that , I'd be wanting to see your pc.
 

jakehake

Preachs PA
Staff member
Patron
Bollox , at 15 you were trying to distinguish whether you where a boy or a kettle. If I was the hone office and saw a comment like that , I'd be wanting to see your pc.
The last person who went hunting through Paddys hard drive seeking enlightenment was Graham Westley.

Careful what you wish for
 

chorleythehord

Forum Patron
Patron
I accept the fact she was just 15 and vulnerable to extremist influences. I’d counter that though that she is not 15 now and hasn’t shown any real regret for her actions except when it seems to help her case. So I’ve no real sympathy for her.

I also get the fact that we are in an uncomfortable position dumping our problems on other countries by taking away her citizenship, though again , she does have dual citizenship.

But let’s say we do let her back in. There may be an attempt to see her tried, but any trial would have to be based on evidence , and as all her crimes were committed abroad, I cannot see the prosecution getting a conviction. In fact I doubt any judge would allow it to proceed to trial.

Meanwhile we would be spending however much on legal aid for her and all the charade that goes with it. So she stays in this country, will never get a job, and lives a comparatively comfortable life off the state for the rest of her existence. Talk about rubbing the noses of the victims families in it.

Just for once, lets be on the side of the victims and the general populace who find the idea of letting her back in like this utterly abhorrent.
 
OP
raefil

raefil

Dolly Patron
Patron
I accept the fact she was just 15 and vulnerable to extremist influences. I’d counter that though that she is not 15 now and hasn’t shown any real regret for her actions except when it seems to help her case. So I’ve no real sympathy for her.

I also get the fact that we are in an uncomfortable position dumping our problems on other countries by taking away her citizenship, though again , she does have dual citizenship.

But let’s say we do let her back in. There may be an attempt to see her tried, but any trial would have to be based on evidence , and as all her crimes were committed abroad, I cannot see the prosecution getting a conviction. In fact I doubt any judge would allow it to proceed to trial.

Meanwhile we would be spending however much on legal aid for her and all the charade that goes with it. So she stays in this country, will never get a job, and lives a comparatively comfortable life off the state for the rest of her existence. Talk about rubbing the noses of the victims families in it.

Just for once, lets be on the side of the victims and the general populace who find the idea of letting her back in like this utterly abhorrent.
No she doesnt.

“Bangladesh asserts that Ms Shamima Begum is not a Bangladeshi citizen. She is a British citizen by birth and never applied for dual nationality with Bangladesh … There is no question of her being allowed to enter into Bangladesh.”

Because our govt lie to say she is doesnt make it the truth.
 

Sepp Blatter

Liz Truss Groupie
Patron
No she doesnt.



Because our govt lie to say she is doesnt make it the truth.
And that's my problem with this. If a government sets the precedent of making someone stateless, who is to say they won't do it in future - for someone whistleblowing against government crimes, for example.

I don't trust governments. Did Blair teach us nothing?
 

Nobber

Forum Patron
Patron
There's no deterrent for crimes like that, brain washed idiots commit those crimes and mainly lose their own lives in the process. You can't negotiate with someone that is willing to blow themselves up. What we can do is try and learn some things from those that went down that path and are still alive, yes?
I agree. So any youth that wants to leave our country to chase some idiotic terrorist dream can now see the possible consequences of that decision.

They have the choice.
 
OP
raefil

raefil

Dolly Patron
Patron
And that's my problem with this. If a government sets the precedent of making someone stateless, who is to say they won't do it in future - for someone whistleblowing against government crimes, for example.

I don't trust governments. Did Blair teach us nothing?
Exactly this, like anybody else I really dont give one about this girl but Im very concerned for the implications for the future. Ive already pointed out that the airport protesters were charged under terrorism laws, govt lost that case but where do they go from here?

 

Sepp Blatter

Liz Truss Groupie
Patron
Exactly this, like anybody else I really dont give one about this girl but Im very concerned for the implications for the future. Ive already pointed out that the airport protesters were charged under terrorism laws, govt lost that case but where do they go from here?

Yup - if someone were to, say, find out that the government had lied as justification to invade another country, or that British agents were involved in kidnapping people off the street and sending them to be tortured, what is to stop them from stripping away the whistleblower's citizenship?

Solves a lot of problems for them if they can make someone stateless.
 

Nobber

Forum Patron
Patron
I don't remember if I wrote this earlier on in the thread, but I'm a convert to Islam so I wanted to chime in with an opinion.

People who join the "State" know exactly what they are getting themselves into, 15 or 51. Now, they may have once been lured by the prospect of no taxes (one of the things promised), gold (another thing they promised), cars and other luxuries (yes, them too), but the reality is this... Everything about the Islamic State as a concept is a self-fulfilled prophecy. How?

Well, in Islam we have things called hadiths which are quotes or things said or done by Muhammad. These quotes were said to have been transmitted by word from people close to the prophet, then eventually compiled by scholars. 99% of Muslims either completely agree with the authenticity of the hadiths we have or at least accept most of them to be what he said, the 1% like me reject all or at least most.
I digress. Of the many things apparently prophesised by Muhammad that would have to take place before the messiah came and triggered the end of times was uprising in the Levant, Syria to be exact. Other religions have prophecies of things that would have to happen before a messianic age could take place, the Third Temple of Solomon being one example.

So when we look at Shemima Begum and say she didn't know what she was getting into, it isn't completely true.
Daesh wanted the prophecy of Muhammad in hadith literature to come true, to trigger the end times, to speed up the apocalypse, the return of Jesus and the Mahdi (messiah) etc. They wanted to fulfill it. Okay, so Shemima may not have envisaged prisoners being locked in cages and set alight, but she would have known she was joining a state created on violence and that many laws would be broken to achieve such a state.
Fascinating post 👍🏻
 

Hogie4a

Reserve
Is the issue really about letting (or not) the girl back into the country.
Or is it more an example to show future nutters that this is the law.
By allowing her back in a precedent may be set for future events.

In an ideal world returning her to her family would be the moral thing to do, possibly.
But sadly too many people have not made this an ideal world.

Roger
 
OP
raefil

raefil

Dolly Patron
Patron
Which ones next?

ExK7j9BVEAgnyVH
 

Liberation

Forum Patron
Patron
Which ones next?

ExK7j9BVEAgnyVH


Covid gold card proving you've been neutered?:) I'm probably missing the point on purpose here but I thought there was a massive backlog in all beaurocracy due to Covid and the introduction of new legislation/control is really not making much sense to me.
 
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