Summer Transfer Window Rumours and Discussion

sedgwick__7

Advisor to the Owner
A lack of real first-team opportunities handed out to academy products by the manager?

Apart from the odd sub appearance and forgetting the likes of Davies, who’s been established for a while now, how often do young players really get a shot here? I suppose Earl got a fair crack in 2017 (?) but you got the feeling that arose more out of need than his impressing the manager, regardless of how well he did.

Some of them simply won’t be good enough and you might get one slipping through the net (remains to be seen whether Dolan will be that one) but we’ll never know how good the likes of Walker could become unless they’re given a chance. Periods when we’re going through a slump, after the manager has rotated his squad, possibly represent an opportunity to play the youngsters. If not then (and apart from cup ties against lower-ranked teams), I really don’t know when you would. Maybe Neil just doesn’t have any faith in them.

It is quite disappointing when you see some of the talent that comes through at other Championship clubs (albeit a lot of these teams will have academies and youth structures that dwarf our own to be honest). Maybe we just have to accept that it’s a tough proposition for a club of our size to build a youth setup that regularly churns out Championship-standard players given who we’re competing against.

In fairness to Neil, the safe option in 2017 when Cunningham got injured would've been to use Tommy Spurr at left back as a stop gap. The club had also signed O'Connor just before he came in, but he put his faith in Earl.

At times, Simon Grayson put Brownhill and Browne into our midfield ahead of more experienced options.

I think our previous couple of managers have been open to using our youngsters, but only if they're good enough. And the problem is that there is no bridge between the U18s and the first team. So you have to be showing sign as early as 17 or 18 that you might be able to play in the Championship soon, or else you won't be kept on.

Personally I think it's more down to the structure of the club (no U23 set-up) than our current or previous manager not wanting to bring through youth. Worth saying it's also hard for managers when they're expected to push for the top 6 to throw in young lads ahead of proven quality players.
 

JohnPNE

Advisor to the Owner
A lack of real first-team opportunities handed out to academy products by the manager?

Apart from the odd sub appearance and forgetting the likes of Davies, who’s been established for a while now, how often do young players really get a shot here? I suppose Earl got a fair crack in 2017 (?) but you got the feeling that arose more out of need than his impressing the manager, regardless of how well he did.

Some of them simply won’t be good enough and you might get one slipping through the net (remains to be seen whether Dolan will be that one) but we’ll never know how good the likes of Walker could become unless they’re given a chance. Periods when we’re going through a slump, after the manager has rotated his squad, possibly represent an opportunity to play the youngsters. If not then (and apart from cup ties against lower-ranked teams), I really don’t know when you would. Maybe Neil just doesn’t have any faith in them.

It is quite disappointing when you see some of the talent that comes through at other Championship clubs (albeit a lot of these teams will have academies and youth structures that dwarf our own to be honest). Maybe we just have to accept that it’s a tough proposition for a club of our size to build a youth setup that regularly churns out Championship-standard players given who we’re competing against.

The issue is young players who come through our youth system need full season loans at other clubs to help their development. Just look at Ben Davies. Three seasons out on loan and he is championship ready.

You cant just thrown in Ethan walker etc unless desperate because they just aren’t ready. They need league experience. You need to be some sort of brilliant talent to make it in the championship/prem without getting the lower league experience first. Dolan probably needs that and let’s be honest he isn’t going to get that here. Is he a midfielder/attacking midfielder. Our reserves are currently better so he just isn’t going to get a chance. You can’t just throw in young players in the hope they come good. We tried that a few seasons ago (barton/major) and we got
Relegated.
 

Pumba

Advisor to the Owner
In fairness to Neil, the safe option in 2017 when Cunningham got injured would've been to use Tommy Spurr at left back as a stop gap. The club had also signed O'Connor just before he came in, but he put his faith in Earl.

At times, Simon Grayson put Brownhill and Browne into our midfield ahead of more experienced options.

I think our previous couple of managers have been open to using our youngsters, but only if they're good enough. And the problem is that there is no bridge between the U18s and the first team. So you have to be showing sign as early as 17 or 18 that you might be able to play in the Championship soon, or else you won't be kept on.

Personally I think it's more down to the structure of the club (no U23 set-up) than our current or previous manager not wanting to bring through youth. Worth saying it's also hard for managers when they're expected to push for the top 6 to throw in young lads ahead of proven quality players.

Very fair points all. It would have been interesting to see whether Dolan would have opted for us instead of Rovers if we’d had an U23 team. As much as it hurts to say this, Rovers will be more attractive a proposition to a young lad, Premier League in ‘95 and all, than us.
 

pbc373

Manager
Out of all the players we haven't given contracts to have any actually been a success?

I think the answer is no, so it seems like the club knows what it's doing with regards to youth players.

I made this point on the Dolan thread when plenty of people were knicker wetting. We see this every year from the same old moaners every time we release a player who others rate as Messi because they looked the part against Wrexham Under 16's. The only player over the last few years to have had even minimal success is Tyler Forbes who made 33 appearances in league 1 for Fleetwood and then got signed by Brighton, he's now playing for Spennymoor.
 

Mr Meeseeks

Forum Patron
Patron
Very fair points all. It would have been interesting to see whether Dolan would have opted for us instead of Rovers if we’d had an U23 team. As much as it hurts to say this, Rovers will be more attractive a proposition to a young lad, Premier League in ‘95 and all, than us.
Our lack of u23 squad means that players must be ready from u18 level straight into the first team. Naturally there won’t be that many and hence why we release players like Dolan.

If Dolan turns out to be amazing then granted we ballsed up but that’s a huge if even at this stage. That will then only be one who’s come back to haunt us. I guess Brownhill too but he did make the jump and was ultimately pushed out of the first team by another youngster in Browne.

We’ve been here before though with Miller, Devine, Barton etc. They were lauded as world beaters and then faded into obscurity. Dolan could easily go either way.

Our signing strategy is to sign young players anyway so I don’t really feel as though we’re missing out. It’s a model that has served us well of recent years, better than a lot of clubs with an u23 set up.
 

Hunts

Reserve
We’ve been here before though with Miller, Devine, Barton etc. They were lauded as world beaters and then faded into obscurity. Dolan could easily go either way.

Jamie Procter went to Swansea, did nothing. Jeffery Monakana, Brighton. These players have done nothing in their careers that would have benefited North End, Dolan might come back to bite and I wish him all the best of luck in his career but if the club thinks Walker, Baxter and O'Reilly are more likely to develop into first team players then I trust their judgement.
 

Mr Meeseeks

Forum Patron
Patron
Jamie Procter went to Swansea, did nothing. Jeffery Monakana, Brighton. These players have done nothing in their careers that would have benefited North End, Dolan might come back to bite and I wish him all the best of luck in his career but if the club thinks Walker, Baxter and O'Reilly are more likely to develop into first team players then I trust their judgement.
Released youth players have gone on to big things in the past for many a club, it’s the nature of the beast, you don’t get every decision right.

Good luck to the lad in his career but yeah, I trust the club’s judgement also.
 

paddysr

Bearded Beauty
Staff member
Patron
Released youth players have gone on to big things in the past for many a club, it’s the nature of the beast, you don’t get every decision right.

Good luck to the lad in his career but yeah, I trust the club’s judgement also.

If Dolan makes it at a high level that will be City, Burnley and us that have gotten it wrong.

I like the lad but look back through the youth threads, those that watched the U18s regularly didnt think he had what it takes.
 

how4rd12

Youth Team
With Dolan Rovers can take a chance on him as they have an under 23's. We would have to find a club loan to develop him if we kept him. It is getting harder to loan players to lower league clubs now due to the salary cap in league 1 & 2. If he is that good he would have been signed by someone like Liverpool and they would be charging millions to loan back to the championship. We usually buy players after doing a lot of looking at their personality and attitude and this is probs the same when it comes to the youth coming through as well. Maybe there was just to many question marks.
 

baysidepne

Manager
Looking at Dolan's interview, it sounded like he wouldn't have stayed even if we'd wanted him to.

Think that should be the focus, why young lads don't see a pathway here. Rather than scrutinising our decision on one player.

Exactly that.

A certain ex-PNE playing agent represents Dolan and they were already looking for a move to develop Dolan's career, which if I'm not mistaken only really came to life in the last 6 months of his scholarship.

If North End had offered a contract to him and he moved on we would have been entitled to compensation but there was no interest from the hierarchy to fund any of the kids a deal.
 
With all the troubles at the club I can't see any players been persuaded to sign for us & same applies to the big 4 they would be mad to extend contracts now
They must read the forums & papers knowing what's going on with all the unrest with the fan base.
They can leave for free in the summer they can't make them leave all very sad.
 

kbd_pne

Forum Patron
Patron
With all the troubles at the club I can't see any players been persuaded to sign for us & same applies to the big 4 they would be mad to extend contracts now they must read the forums & papers knowing what's going on with all the unrest with the fan base.
They can leave for free in the summer they can't make them leave all very sad.

If our better players leave it’s because they can get better money elsewhere or because they can play at a higher level elsewhere, or certainly having a better chance of doing so.

They only see what we see. No good strikers coming in season after season, and a consistent failure to capitalise on being in a good position by strengthening the squad.

Obviously the financials are very different to other industries but it’s only like any other job really, you want to see the opportunity to progress. We are mid-table season after season and the club does nothing differently to change that.

Players are stalling on re-signing and keeping their options open for those reasons, not because of fan unrest at ticketing policy.
 

simonnisbet

Manager
With all the troubles at the club I can't see any players been persuaded to sign for us & same applies to the big 4 they would be mad to extend contracts now
They must read the forums & papers knowing what's going on with all the unrest with the fan base.
They can leave for free in the summer they can't make them leave all very sad.
I’d like to think we won’t stand in anyones way if a big club comes in for them whether they have a year on their contract or 3. Just sign the contract and see how this season pans out then review. Doesnt sound like we’ve had any offers in so far after all.
 

Kenmare_White

Advisor to the Owner
With all the troubles at the club I can't see any players been persuaded to sign for us & same applies to the big 4 they would be mad to extend contracts now
They must read the forums & papers knowing what's going on with all the unrest with the fan base.
They can leave for free in the summer they can't make them leave all very sad.

Oh so a disgruntled fan base will be the reason for them not signing on? More tripe.

Maybe some of the below are reasons our better players aren’t signing on:
A) our annual lack of ambition in the transfer market
B) our annual lethargy in the transfer market
C) constantly selling our better players
D) could easily double their wages elsewhere
E) on the cusp of something but never take that extra step
F) Owner promised a training ground that is not even going to be started

But no. Let’s blame the fans.
 

sedgwick__7

Advisor to the Owner
I’d like to think we won’t stand in anyones way if a big club comes in for them whether they have a year on their contract or 3. Just sign the contract and see how this season pans out then review. Doesnt sound like we’ve had any offers in so far after all.

It's an interesting point.

We only seem to consider selling when the players have one year left on their deals. As such, some of the lads may be reluctant to lock themselves into another long-term deal if they know the club will ask for silly money until they have 1 year left.

As for not having any offers in yet, the danger will be if clubs start to circle later on in the window. We will then cash in rather than lose them for free next summer and we will have little to no time to reinvest, although the club don't do that anyway.
 
OP
O

oliharg

Manager
Just wondering if there’s been any movement with any incomings? Just seems to have gone a bit stale recently.

The RB was close about 2 weeks back I feel, and same with the ST wanting to come, just seems we’re falling into not bringing anyone in.
 

simonnisbet

Manager
The RB talk seemed to quieten when It was addressed that Fisher was injured and not out of the team as a result of a fall out.
The longer the time goes by with the ST position the more likely we will be going to plan b, c ... Really wanted to see Woodrow in by now but that does seem less and less unlikely now.
 
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