Taking the knee

Not sure if this has been discussed here, but I've just written an article about BLM in football:


Enjoy!
 

Brianjohn14

First Team
BLM I think its time to stop this ridiculous on one knee pantomime we don't need that crap before every game .I think its been taken over by left wing activist the destruction these groups have caused and most of them are white behind all this .
I believe it should be stopped as it causes more racial discrimination and most black people just want to live a happy and normal life without all this violence .Just my point of view seeing all the destruction of property small businesses too .
 
OP
Y

Yossarian_lives

Reserve
You obviously read the first sentence, saw that it was questioning of BLM's influence, and used the lighthearted comment about Rooney a couple of sentences later to avoid having to confront the issue. You did a similar thing in response to Brianjohn, this time simply dismissing him as being in the 'wrong tribe' without having to engage in any actual thought.

For the record I don't particularly consider myself right-wing, and certainly not on social issues. But even if I did, the labels don't matter; what matters is the argument, which you've so far failed to engage in.

So what's your feeling on the knee? Tell me. You might change my mind.
 

raefil

Shit Fan
Patron
You obviously read the first sentence, saw that it was questioning of BLM's influence, and used the lighthearted comment about Rooney a couple of sentences later to avoid having to confront the issue. You did a similar thing in response to Brianjohn, this time simply dismissing him as being in the 'wrong tribe' without having to engage in any actual thought.

For the record I don't particularly consider myself right-wing, and certainly not on social issues. But even if I did, the labels don't matter; what matters is the argument, which you've so far failed to engage in.

So what's your feeling on the knee? Tell me. You might change my mind.
try checking out the already running threads.

Lots of interesting discussion on there from many differing angles.

FWIW the whole thing has become, from some quarters, highly political and hence we tend to keep those discussions in the appropriate places of the forum.
 

Dirty Harry

Advisor to the Owner
Not sure if this has been discussed here, but I've just written an article about BLM in football:


Enjoy!
If Millwall fans are so opposed to their matches being hijacked by 'political movements' how come so many of them have been happy to align themselves to National Front and British Movement organisations at their matches down the years?
 

Dirty Harry

Advisor to the Owner
Not sure if this has been discussed here, but I've just written an article about BLM in football:


Enjoy!
Interesting that you brand Dion Dublin (pro BLM) rather sarcastically as a 'celebrated philosopher' to belittle his stance yet post up the inane views of a few numpties from Millwall as evidence to back up the point you try to make yourself. And as for the line about Rooney? Come on.
 

John T

Advisor to the Owner
I have said before on this topic

If people want to 'take the knee' them they can
As long as they don't force or intimidate others to do it
For me BLM and the clenched fist salute is too much like the Black Power Group which maybe started off well intentioned but turned some pretty violent with people getting hurt by Mobs
Lewis Hamilton in particular should be very careful because if that happens his ‘clean’ image will be well and truly shattered, and probably the ‘add’ money with it
 

egghead

Manager
I have said before on this topic

If people want to 'take the knee' them they can
As long as they don't force or intimidate others to do it
For me BLM and the clenched fist salute is too much like the Black Power Group which maybe started off well intentioned but turned some pretty violent with people getting hurt by Mobs
Lewis Hamilton in particular should be very careful because if that happens his ‘clean’ image will be well and truly shattered, and probably the ‘add’ money with it

Yeh, I'm sure Hamilton will take your 'protest quietly' advice. Because that's how change really happens, people being quiet.
'Confused old white guy advises multi-millionaire black sporting figure on how to protest' is really a headline that writes itself, eh...
 
OP
Y

Yossarian_lives

Reserve
try checking out the already running threads.

Lots of interesting discussion on there from many differing angles.

FWIW the whole thing has become, from some quarters, highly political and hence we tend to keep those discussions in the appropriate places of the forum.
Great - mods can merge threads if they're too similar, although I would have thought that a thread about the FA's adoption of the gesture, and more specifically about the response to the Millwall fans' reaction, would fit well here. Do you think that the FA was wise to stipulate that clubs should take the knee, and that players' names be replaced with the name of a rising global movement, whose stated aims - if they'd only checked the websites of the founders or of the movement itself - go far beyond a nominal expression of anti-racism? In your own words, such an act has become "highly political". Given this, is this a shrewd precedent for the FA to set? I'm not here to catch you out. I genuinely look forward to discussing your opinion.

If Millwall fans are so opposed to their matches being hijacked by 'political movements' how come so many of them have been happy to align themselves to National Front and British Movement organisations at their matches down the years?
Any decent person abhors those elements of Millwall's past, but you've drawn a false equivalence. Never before has a UK sporting body declared that players be made vehicles for such views; and if they had, even in the 80s I don't imagine they would all have just watched on in silent approval. If you want to take Millwall out of the equation, what do you think of the Colchester fans who booed?

Interesting that you brand Dion Dublin (pro BLM) rather sarcastically as a 'celebrated philosopher' to belittle his stance yet post up the inane views of a few numpties from Millwall as evidence to back up the point you try to make yourself. And as for the line about Rooney? Come on.
I don't see your logic here. I called out Dublin for his lazy, unreasoned assertion that booing the knee makes one a racist, and then gave a sample of opinions (from a far more extensive list, which I'm happy to post here if you like) to show the reasons Millwall fans themselves gave for booing the knee. If there's a contradiction there that I haven't spotted, please feel free to point it out. Do you think that Millwall fans were booing out of racism, and if so, can you explain this reaction (https:// twitter.com/JakeSanders92/status/1336396429548544002) to their players uniting behind the Kick It Out banner? Could you elaborate on why you think the views of these 'numpties' are inane? Perhaps they are, but you haven't given an opinion yet.

If people want to 'take the knee' them they can
As long as they don't force or intimidate others to do it
This is exactly the point, though. I think everyone here defends the right of any player, of their own volition, to demonstrate in whatever way they see fit. But this was originally a top-down order, with the FA immediately condemning, and then threatening an investigation into, those fans who opposed it. Isn't this an intimidation of sorts (and therefore, given that the gesture was inspired directly by BLM protests, an enforced tacit endorsement of the group by proxy)?

Yeh, I'm sure Hamilton will take your 'protest quietly' advice. Because that's how change really happens, people being quiet.
'Confused old white guy advises multi-millionaire black sporting figure on how to protest' is really a headline that writes itself, eh...
To be fair, I'm not sure he was talking about being silent, since the fist is literally a silent gesture, and an international sports star with 4 million+ Twitter followers has a huge platform from which to speak. These are not the days of Mexico '68, and if there are policies he can advocate - as others have done - that he feels might advance the plight of disadvantaged communities, I want to hear them. Hamilton can do or say what he likes, but if such gestures are to be taken as a political statement, that statement should then be open to public scrutiny. Those opinions will stand or fall on their own merits, and if his stance still holds up after everyone's knocked the blocks off it, it will ultimately win out.


I don't think this is all a big left-wing conspiracy on the FA's part, and I think they were probably well-intentioned when they made the original statement. They were, however, incredibly naive in their lack of due diligence on the group itself, and in condemning any opposition to the knee they're now leaving themselves wide open to accusations of partisanship. Whichever way you look at it, it's hard not to conclude that the FA messed up here, but if anyone has any good arguments to the contrary I'd be happy to hear them.
 

raefil

Shit Fan
Patron
Great - mods can merge threads if they're too similar, although I would have thought that a thread about the FA's adoption of the gesture, and more specifically about the response to the Millwall fans' reaction, would fit well here. Do you think that the FA was wise to stipulate that clubs should take the knee, and that players' names be replaced with the name of a rising global movement, whose stated aims - if they'd only checked the websites of the founders or of the movement itself - go far beyond a nominal expression of anti-racism? In your own words, such an act has become "highly political". Given this, is this a shrewd precedent for the FA to set? I'm not here to catch you out. I genuinely look forward to discussing your opinion.


Any decent person abhors those elements of Millwall's past, but you've drawn a false equivalence. Never before has a UK sporting body declared that players be made vehicles for such views; and if they had, even in the 80s I don't imagine they would all have just watched on in silent approval. If you want to take Millwall out of the equation, what do you think of the Colchester fans who booed?


I don't see your logic here. I called out Dublin for his lazy, unreasoned assertion that booing the knee makes one a racist, and then gave a sample of opinions (from a far more extensive list, which I'm happy to post here if you like) to show the reasons Millwall fans themselves gave for booing the knee. If there's a contradiction there that I haven't spotted, please feel free to point it out. Do you think that Millwall fans were booing out of racism, and if so, can you explain this reaction (https:// twitter.com/JakeSanders92/status/1336396429548544002) to their players uniting behind the Kick It Out banner? Could you elaborate on why you think the views of these 'numpties' are inane? Perhaps they are, but you haven't given an opinion yet.


This is exactly the point, though. I think everyone here defends the right of any player, of their own volition, to demonstrate in whatever way they see fit. But this was originally a top-down order, with the FA immediately condemning, and then threatening an investigation into, those fans who opposed it. Isn't this an intimidation of sorts (and therefore, given that the gesture was inspired directly by BLM protests, an enforced tacit endorsement of the group by proxy)?


To be fair, I'm not sure he was talking about being silent, since the fist is literally a silent gesture, and an international sports star with 4 million+ Twitter followers has a huge platform from which to speak. These are not the days of Mexico '68, and if there are policies he can advocate - as others have done - that he feels might advance the plight of disadvantaged communities, I want to hear them. Hamilton can do or say what he likes, but if such gestures are to be taken as a political statement, that statement should then be open to public scrutiny. Those opinions will stand or fall on their own merits, and if his stance still holds up after everyone's knocked the blocks off it, it will ultimately win out.


I don't think this is all a big left-wing conspiracy on the FA's part, and I think they were probably well-intentioned when they made the original statement. They were, however, incredibly naive in their lack of due diligence on the group itself, and in condemning any opposition to the knee they're now leaving themselves wide open to accusations of partisanship. Whichever way you look at it, it's hard not to conclude that the FA messed up here, but if anyone has any good arguments to the contrary I'd be happy to hear them.
The only ones calling BLM, lefties or marxists are those with right wing leanings.

Been discussed at great lengths on other threads,
 

deepdaledreamer

Forum Patron
Patron
Personally no problem what so ever with taking the knee in support of a cause and if i was young and active enough in sport i would do the same.
Not so sure about standing with the clenched Black power fist, that to me is more political and not just a general 'i support your struggle'.
Of course everyone should be free to do what there conscience dictates but to me taking the knee on its own is just a show of support.
 

daddyman16

Reserve
I would rather pay tribute to those killed due to racist attacks with a minute silence and make it my best intention to support and defend people of all ethnicities, teaching my kids to do the same. The intention of knee taking isn't bad entirely, it's an effort to show solidarity, but sadly it is not even remotely enough.
 
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