The “Trans” debate

Mancunian White

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It’s this type of stuff that I, personally, can’t get my head round.

“The only solution” makes it sound like having male and female toilets is a pressing issue world wide. Creating an issue out of nothing imo.

If, for some very odd reason in my opinion, you are neither a male nor a female, then take your pick. Or use the disabled one (if available), which is gender neutral after all.

It's a question that needs answering though. If you make a all biological males use the men's toilet, or all biological females use the women's, someone will always be made uncomfortable.

What toilet should this man go into? He's a biological female with XX chromosomes and a vagina.

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As an aside, it's really interesting how little the issue of trans men comes up in this debate.
 

Sepp Blatter

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It's a question that needs answering though. If you make a all biological males use the men's toilet, or all biological females use the women's, someone will always be made uncomfortable.

What toilet should this man go into? He's a biological female with XX chromosomes and a vagina.

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As an aside, it's really interesting how little the issue of trans men comes up in this debate.
Buck Angel is an advocate of having gender neutral bathrooms as well as single sex, where possible. That does seem to be the logical compromise.

He is very outspoken against many trans activist demands - such as stating that transwomen should not compete in women's sport. Speaks a lot of sense, IMO.

The trans men one is interesting - partly because they are less likely to have an advantage in men's sports (many of which are actually open, not restricted to men), and partly because the dynamic is different.

Males are more likely to be sexual predators with a significant strength advantage - as I said above, we don't always realise how much we intimidate women.
 

Mancunian White

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Buck Angel is an advocate of having gender neutral bathrooms as well as single sex, where possible. That does seem to be the logical compromise.

He is very outspoken against many trans activist demands - such as stating that transwomen should not compete in women's sport. Speaks a lot of sense, IMO.

The trans men one is interesting - partly because they are less likely to have an advantage in men's sports (many of which are actually open, not restricted to men), and partly because the dynamic is different.

Males are more likely to be sexual predators with a significant strength advantage - as I said above, we don't always realise how much we intimidate women.
Got a lot of time for Buck Angel. Had never heard about him until he came under fire from sectors of the left for not being a strong enough advocate for non-binary people.

Speaks a lot of sense, definitely. The sort of lead voice the cause needs but seems to have been alienated for not being "pure" enough. Classic lefties.
 

Jack Daniels

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Not read all of the thread but had anyone mentioned the issue in America of a trans person (Male to Female) in the changing room flaunting his male bits in front of women and kids?

Caused a right eruption over there.

People are defending the trans person and vice versa. Some ugly scenes outside the Spa.

A question brought up was "if it was a bloke showing his bits off to women and kids" then he'd be rightly called all sorts.

I'll post up videos and links tomorrow.

Personally, if you are still pre-OP, then you stay in the changing room of your born gender.

Can of worms.
 

daddyman16

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Personally, if you are still pre-OP, then you stay in the changing room of your born gender.

Or at least wear some sort of clothing to keep it concealed surely.
Kids shouldn't be seeing that stuff, I don't even like to change in front of mine and they're my kids.
 

Jack Daniels

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As promised.



Here is where it gets violent, absolutely no time for these face covered up clad in black spineless fuckwits ganging up on one or two persons, mob mentality rules in the USA, not unlike their foreign policies.


 
My approach is this. Would I like to give trans people everything they wanted in terms of access to spaces? Yes of course. Are we able to give trans people those rights without question? No of course not. Why? Because of predatory men. Nothing transphobic in this, it is the exact same principle we work on in a multitude of other areas of life. Is your 18 year old daughter/neice safe walking home from town after a night out? No. Why? Because of predatory men. Can children go online without supervision? Yes of course. Should they? No fucking way. Why? Predatory men. Are genuine trans people a threat to children? Of course not. Are there predatory men willing to pretend to be trans to gain access to victims in female spaces? Of course there are so the question is with self ID, how many predatory males are you prepared to allow access to female spaces. How many victims is too many? My answer to that would be 1 is too many. Sadly that number was breached long ago without self ID so until we as society solve the problem of predatory men we need to protect women's spaces at all costs.
 

Regardless

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It’s a a very well structured point Brizzle. You ask a very pertinent question about what is the acceptable level of predatory men incidents arising from abuse of “trans right”?

Heaven knows how you can possibly put a number on it. But it’s not zero.

Some will recoil at that sentence, but I mean in the sense like asking what’s an acceptable level of road deaths? If you say “Less than 1” then you’ll have to ban vehicles.

Society has to make a call based on risk-benefit… then continually work to improve the benefit/risk ratio. The rights and acceptance of transgender people have rightly leapt forward in (very) recent times. But I too have real problems with self ID.

My gut feel is that if you want to have any rights associated with the ‘opposite’ gender, there needs to be robust formal process involved. Maybe there already is - I hear conflicting things and am not well versed.
 

Mancunian White

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It’s a a very well structured point Brizzle. You ask a very pertinent question about what is the acceptable level of predatory men incidents arising from abuse of “trans right”?

Heaven knows how you can possibly put a number on it. But it’s not zero.

Some will recoil at that sentence, but I mean in the sense like asking what’s an acceptable level of road deaths? If you say “Less than 1” then you’ll have to ban vehicles.

Society has to make a call based on risk-benefit… then continually work to improve the benefit/risk ratio. The rights and acceptance of transgender people have rightly leapt forward in (very) recent times. But I too have real problems with self ID.

My gut feel is that if you want to have any rights associated with the ‘opposite’ gender, there needs to be robust formal process involved. Maybe there already is - I hear conflicting things and am not well versed.
I was going to make this exact post in response but decided I could be arsed dealing with the inevitable fallout from it.

You're a brave one, regardless.
 

Regardless

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I was going to make this exact post in response but decided I could be arsed dealing with the inevitable fallout from it.

You're a brave one, regardless.

That sort of comment is one that makes me read back and think “Oh hell, what have I said?”!

When I read your post, I honestly didn’t immediately compute what you meant. I am sure I do now - but if anyone disagrees with the non-zero number of “acceptable” victims, then I think they are not reading it in the context/sense I mean - and I am not sure I have the ability to write it any clearer!
 

Mancunian White

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That sort of comment is one that makes me read back and think “Oh hell, what have I said?”!

When I read your post, I honestly didn’t immediately compute what you meant. I am sure I do now - but if anyone disagrees with the non-zero number of “acceptable” victims, then I think they are not reading it in the context/sense I mean - and I am not sure I have the ability to write it any clearer!
I meant it in that it's a very logical and cold way of viewing a very emotional issue.

Asking "what is an acceptable number of sexual assault on children?" is not something that's going to get cold and logical responses most of the time.
 
It’s a a very well structured point Brizzle. You ask a very pertinent question about what is the acceptable level of predatory men incidents arising from abuse of “trans right”?

Heaven knows how you can possibly put a number on it. But it’s not zero.

Some will recoil at that sentence, but I mean in the sense like asking what’s an acceptable level of road deaths? If you say “Less than 1” then you’ll have to ban vehicles.

Society has to make a call based on risk-benefit… then continually work to improve the benefit/risk ratio. The rights and acceptance of transgender people have rightly leapt forward in (very) recent times. But I too have real problems with self ID.

My gut feel is that if you want to have any rights associated with the ‘opposite’ gender, there needs to be robust formal process involved. Maybe there already is - I hear conflicting things and am not well versed.

Yeah you make a good point there about zero incidents and risk-benefit.
 

Sepp Blatter

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That sort of comment is one that makes me read back and think “Oh hell, what have I said?”!

When I read your post, I honestly didn’t immediately compute what you meant. I am sure I do now - but if anyone disagrees with the non-zero number of “acceptable” victims, then I think they are not reading it in the context/sense I mean - and I am not sure I have the ability to write it any clearer!
Think you were pretty clear with it and I get what you were saying - the same way that we don't bar men from becoming scout leaders, sports coaches, teachers, and priests because a few molest children.

They do go through background checks, though...

But, this does not really get to the heart of the issue - women feeling very uncomfortable and vulnerable when they are in changing rooms or bathrooms around someone they perceive as male. The same for domestic abuse centres or hospitals.

How to solve that is the issue. Again, I bring up the idea that most of us, as men, do not understand how terrifying we can be to women. Don't forget that over two thirds of British women have experienced sexual harassment.

Setting up gender neutral facilities, where possible, seems the best compromise to me.
 

Sepp Blatter

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Got a lot of time for Buck Angel. Had never heard about him until he came under fire from sectors of the left for not being a strong enough advocate for non-binary people.

Speaks a lot of sense, definitely. The sort of lead voice the cause needs but seems to have been alienated for not being "pure" enough. Classic lefties.
Sadly, the extremists are setting the debate. Some absolutely vile people on social media - a minority, of course, but very vocal.

Wouldn't mind so much if it was confined to Twitter, but when it spreads into the mainstream and organisations start holding undue influence, that is a different matter.
 
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