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Ukraine-Russia Conflict

Sepp Blatter

Ursula Fanboy
Patron
I understand completely what you are saying but at whose door should this mess be placed? Talking is a far more sensible approach than amassing hundreds of thousands of troops and making a land grab and then slowly but surely getting your arse kicked.... Absolute madness ( and sadness ) :(
As discussed earlier in the thread, this history goes back a few years - a civil conflict with many deaths and discrimination against Russian speakers in Ukraine. That did not justify the invasion, but it does not mean that Ukrainian governments are entirely blameless or are suddenly 'good guys' with a clean record. They and some of their troops have taken some horrible actions (as did the other side in the civil conflict, too).

Like many such conflicts, this is multilayered and complex. As I said, we need to monitor the Ukrainian forces closely and make sure that any action taken is proportionate and based on fair trials. There are many journalists and political analysts who are not pro-Russian warning about this.
 

Sepp Blatter

Ursula Fanboy
Patron
Haven't the Russians, upon invasion, 'deported' some of the resident Ukrainian Civilians they found (& killing others) to originally (& always) Russian Territories in the East?
Perhaps, in ways similar to those "dissidents" the Communists sent to the Siberian Gulags ?
They may well have done - and may well have committed other war crimes, for which I hope they are punished. But, I don't trust any information coming from the Ukrainian government and US any more than I trust information coming from the Russians. The one constant in this conflict is that everyone lies and fills the media with bullshit.
 

Took My Heart

Forum Patron
Patron
I know this sounds really picky but to add a bit more depth, 'Russian speakers' doesn't necessarily equate to 'Russian supporters'.

A lot of people, particularly in the East of the country and of a certain age only learnt Russian. Even in places like Kiev there are a lot of Russian only speakers who I assume hate Russia.

Also on a smaller scale, there will be people who have Russian family and friends but won't support Russia's actions.

Reading around it seems the suppression of Russian as an official language was a huge mis-step by Ukraine which did provoke those with Russian sympathies but it's easy to assume Russian speakers are united when they may not be.
 

Preston1880

Forum Patron
Patron
I know this sounds really picky but to add a bit more depth, 'Russian speakers' doesn't necessarily equate to 'Russian supporters'.

A lot of people, particularly in the East of the country and of a certain age only learnt Russian. Even in places like Kiev there are a lot of Russian only speakers who I assume hate Russia.

Also on a smaller scale, there will be people who have Russian family and friends but won't support Russia's actions.

Reading around it seems the suppression of Russian as an official language was a huge mis-step by Ukraine which did provoke those with Russian sympathies but it's easy to assume Russian speakers are united when they may not be.

Yep, it's a tricky one. Kharkiv for example is the 2nd biggest city in Ukraine, and is an entirely Russian speaking city.
 

Liberation

Forum Patron
Patron
As discussed earlier in the thread, this history goes back a few years - a civil conflict with many deaths and discrimination against Russian speakers in Ukraine. That did not justify the invasion, but it does not mean that Ukrainian governments are entirely blameless or are suddenly 'good guys' with a clean record. They and some of their troops have taken some horrible actions (as did the other side in the civil conflict, too).

Like many such conflicts, this is multilayered and complex. As I said, we need to monitor the Ukrainian forces closely and make sure that any action taken is proportionate and based on fair trials. There are many journalists and political analysts who are not pro-Russian warning about this.


I think that we both know what the Ukrainian forces will do... Personally I doubt that given the opportunity it will be neither proportionate or under queensbury rules...It'll be vengeance...
 

Sepp Blatter

Ursula Fanboy
Patron
I know this sounds really picky but to add a bit more depth, 'Russian speakers' doesn't necessarily equate to 'Russian supporters'.

A lot of people, particularly in the East of the country and of a certain age only learnt Russian. Even in places like Kiev there are a lot of Russian only speakers who I assume hate Russia.

Also on a smaller scale, there will be people who have Russian family and friends but won't support Russia's actions.

Reading around it seems the suppression of Russian as an official language was a huge mis-step by Ukraine which did provoke those with Russian sympathies but it's easy to assume Russian speakers are united when they may not be.
Absolutely agree - like a lot of conflicts based on ethnicity or language, it is extremely complex. Didn't really want to say ethnic Russians because that is just as clumsy when they are the same ethnicity and the language is the main difference.

And, you are quite right - Russian is widely used, even by people with Ukrainian as their first language. However, there is little doubt that the further East you go (and into the Crimea), the more they are sympathetic to Russia.

It was a misstep - and not just against Russians. The Greek news has followed the conflict pretty closely for many years because there is a sizeable Greek community there - they also faced restrictions on the use of their language, which did not go down well. Another thing people forget is that Zelensky got a lot of votes even among the Russian-speaking populations because he promised to implement the Minsk agreements. He did the opposite.
 

Sepp Blatter

Ursula Fanboy
Patron
I think that we both know what the Ukrainian forces will do... Personally I doubt that given the opportunity it will be neither proportionate or under queensbury rules...It'll be vengeance...
That is my worry - and some of the rhetoric from politicians has been very inflammatory. If they do go down that road, I hope that the Western media will be just as quick to condemn it.
 

Took My Heart

Forum Patron
Patron
Absolutely agree - like a lot of conflicts based on ethnicity or language, it is extremely complex. Didn't really want to say ethnic Russians because that is just as clumsy when they are the same ethnicity and the language is the main difference.

And, you are quite right - Russian is widely used, even by people with Ukrainian as their first language. However, there is little doubt that the further East you go (and into the Crimea), the more they are sympathetic to Russia.

It was a misstep - and not just against Russians. The Greek news has followed the conflict pretty closely for many years because there is a sizeable Greek community there - they also faced restrictions on the use of their language, which did not go down well. Another thing people forget is that Zelensky got a lot of votes even among the Russian-speaking populations because he promised to implement the Minsk agreements. He did the opposite.
On a broader point, I was thinking about colonialism in the context of Central and Eastern Europe earlier.

We often think of colonialism that only happened in the Americas, Asia and Africa and it happened by the actions of White Europeans. That did happen of course, but we typically refer to Western Europe ambitions when we say it.

When I think about the 20th Century and beyond most of Central and Eastern Europe has been victim to colonialism by the Turkish Empire to the South, the German Empire to the West and the Russian Empire to the East. To a degree one could view NATO or the EU as a replacement for the German Empire now.

We've seen the Iron Curtain of course rise and fall in the last 100 years , but how many nations have had their borders shaped, having language and culture imported by imperial ambition?

So that leads to us discussing the role of the Russian language in Ukraine, the culture of where 'home' is in Crimea, but also how Ukraine is talked about in terms of what Russia's interests are and the role of the EU and NATO. Sometimes it seems as if people talk about Ukraine as if it is only a country by the grace of Russia or that it's needs and wants can only be viewed through the lens of the West or Russia.

I think having typed that I can see parallels with how we view colonialism elsewhere, and how in Western Europe (and likely Russia) we see these people as 'dirty step children' or 'little brothers'.

I don't know enough about it but would it be fair to say those perspectives exist in Southern Europe, particularly in how places like Cyprus, Macedonia and Albania are viewed and the context of Greece's history with Turkey?
 

Sepp Blatter

Ursula Fanboy
Patron
On a broader point, I was thinking about colonialism in the context of Central and Eastern Europe earlier.

We often think of colonialism that only happened in the Americas, Asia and Africa and it happened by the actions of White Europeans. That did happen of course, but we typically refer to Western Europe ambitions when we say it.

When I think about the 20th Century and beyond most of Central and Eastern Europe has been victim to colonialism by the Turkish Empire to the South, the German Empire to the West and the Russian Empire to the East. To a degree one could view NATO or the EU as a replacement for the German Empire now.

We've seen the Iron Curtain of course rise and fall in the last 100 years , but how many nations have had their borders shaped, having language and culture imported by imperial ambition?

So that leads to us discussing the role of the Russian language in Ukraine, the culture of where 'home' is in Crimea, but also how Ukraine is talked about in terms of what Russia's interests are and the role of the EU and NATO. Sometimes it seems as if people talk about Ukraine as if it is only a country by the grace of Russia or that it's needs and wants can only be viewed through the lens of the West or Russia.

I think having typed that I can see parallels with how we view colonialism elsewhere, and how in Western Europe (and likely Russia) we see these people as 'dirty step children' or 'little brothers'.

I don't know enough about it but would it be fair to say those perspectives exist in Southern Europe, particularly in how places like Cyprus, Macedonia and Albania are viewed and the context of Greece's history with Turkey?
Absolutely agree - this is the problem with proxy conflicts where powerful nations don't want to directly engage. Someone else pays the price, whether Ukraine, Yemen, or Armenia.

Greece has indeed been subject to the whims of the Great Powers largely due to its strategic location. Historically with Ottomans, British, and Venetians etc. Even in the fairly recent past, Greece became a pawn between the Allies and Stalin, and the US and Brits later imposed various rulers and interfered with politics without really caring about what the Greeks actually wanted. Very similar in the Balkans, too - it is an exceptionally difficult area and few outside it try to understand these complexities, instead trying to paint it us vs. them or whatever while they play geopolitical chess.

For me, that is why the media in this part of the world, as far as I can make out, do tend to take a much more nuanced view of conflicts. Cyprus is an interesting one - maybe a lot of parallels with the Ukrainian conflict.
 

Preston1880

Forum Patron
Patron
@Sepp Blatter

Hi Sepp, can I join your Liz Truss fanboy club please?

But before I do, can I ask... Are we absolutely infatuated, obsessed and in love with Truss? Or do we just admire her for a bit of a laugh?

Just wanna know so I know where to draw the line when I'm demonstrating my devotion.

Cheers.

P. S - if you reject me, I'll set up a Penny Mordaunt fanboy club that will completely dwarf your organisation and bring it to its knees, so be warned.
 

Sepp Blatter

Ursula Fanboy
Patron
@Sepp Blatter

Hi Sepp, can I join your Liz Truss fanboy club please?

But before I do, can I ask... Are we absolutely infatuated, obsessed and in love with Truss? Or do we just admire her for a bit of a laugh?

Just wanna know so I know where to draw the line when I'm demonstrating my devotion.

Cheers.

P. S - if you reject me, I'll set up a Penny Mordaunt fanboy club that will completely dwarf your organisation and bring it to its knees, so be warned.
You can - and Lovely Liz can be whatever you want her to be :D
 

Regardless

Forum Patron
Patron
Classic bait n switch being played out by the Ukrainians.

Russia has consistently been falling into every basic trap the Ukrainians have set up. Even the Ukrainians are flabbergasted by the sheer incompetence and inability of the Russians.

After a lightning counter-offensive in the North East, liberating Izum and Kopiansk (acquiring massive amounts of abandoned ammunition, tanks and vehicles in the process) the Ukrainians are now also on the outskirts of Donetsk city and Luhansk in the east...which is absolutely phenomenal, and It'll be interesting to see how far into the DPR and LPR the Ukrainian forces can actually go on this front. Hopefully all the way to the pre-2014 border.

Kherson will be liberated by October, and there are already unconfirmed reports that the Ukrainians are making a push towards Mariupol.

A massive part of war is momentum and the Ukrainians are the ones with it now... Massively. The Russians are abandoning positions all across the front line now. They're low on morale, basic necessities, skilled competent personnel and have been treat like scum by their officers and higher-ups. A domino effect is taking place and it's almost impossible to stop.

After a probable operational pause through December and January, I wouldn't put it past the Ukrainians to have a proper go at taking back Crimea in Spring 2023.

That’s an optimistic view and I hope proves true. Interesting points made over the last page or two.

@sussexrob made the point of a wounded Russia. Clearly a big concern - but I agree that we just have to face what face. A non-wounded Russia is also a mega threat.
 

Regardless

Forum Patron
Patron
If Ukraine does succeed in taking back some (or all) territory, surely the only way to some sort of stability is for zero discrimination against any of their own population- Russian-speaking or not.

Hoping we are among loud voices pressing this message home.
 
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