Uncle Trev.

Pilot

Reserve
mapping;n3426607 said:
wld;n3426565 said:
Why? There’s threads discussing goalkeeping coaches, blaming injuries on the way we train/play/pitches we play on, talking about the training ground etc - all without full knowledge of the facts. If anything, discussing certified accounts is based more wholly on facts.[/QUOTE

based wholly on fact , lol , bit of an eye opener at the fans forum when the " fact " was revealed trev was owed 73 mil in soft loans .
It wasn’t an eye opener at all, if you can read accounts you’ll see how much he’s had to put in and that’s on top of buying the shares. You seem convinced there’s some sort of illegal activity going on by the directors.
 

epsilon

Reserve
To clarify the 73m figure, it doesn't appear in any single account, at least not to my knowledge. (Someone will put that right, as needed). I was aware that Hemmings had spent 70m on the club by Jun 2017 and that a further 5m was going to be spent. In the end it was 3m.

(As an aside, for this thread: I wondered if the extra 2m was planned to be a striker purchase but have no way of knowing.)

Edit: Also relevant to say: some of that 73m has already been written off.
In 2014, the total debt was reduced by 33m to around 20m.
 
Last edited:

epsilon

Reserve
It might be interesting to some people to see a very limited set of figures for PNE, the company, over the last 6 years or so.

If so, there would be one row of figures per year.

The figures on each row would be Year, Loss, Outstanding Loan, owner yearly contribution, owner cumulative contribution.

That would tie together the various figures that have been discussed in this thread.

I have some of these figures, but not all of them. From what I see though, losses are being brought under better control.
 

Pilot

Reserve
epsilon;n3426658 said:
To clarify the 73m figure, it doesn't appear in any single account, at least not to my knowledge. (Someone will put that right, as needed). I was aware that Hemmings had spent 70m on the club by Jun 2017 and that a further 5m was going to be spent. In the end it was 3m.

(As an aside, for this thread: I wondered if the extra 2m was planned to be a striker purchase but have no way of knowing.)

Edit: Also relevant to say: some of that 73m has already been written off.
In 2014, the total debt was reduced by 33m to around 20m.
Some of the debt has been converted to share capital
 

RVW

Reserve
To sum up...……….without TH my guess is we would have done similar to what happened to Wimbledon, Bradford and Portsmouth etc and slowly (or quickly) slide down the divisions until we ended up roughly where we were in the mid 1980's...….ie 4th division, League div 2, whatever you want to call it, or to put it more succinctly...….f***ed.
 

Aitch

Forum Patron
Patron
RVW;n3426723 said:
.ie 4th division, League div 2, whatever you want to call it, or to put it more succinctly...….f***ed.
This +1

We're struggling to compete in the Championship with his backing, never mind without it
 

mapping

Forum Patron
Patron
Pilot;n3426656 said:
mapping;n3426607 said:
It wasn’t an eye opener at all, if you can read accounts you’ll see how much he’s had to put in and that’s on top of buying the shares. You seem convinced there’s some sort of illegal activity going on by the directors.
I am convinced that there is alot of "accounting" between many companies that not everyone can simply point out as fact from a link from a companies house posting , never for one moment suggested anything illegal has taken place , probably quite the opposite , money moves , share conversions , asset passing and offsetting tax , all between more than one company.

It was eye opener to those who couldnt read accounts, which I would argue is a greater proportion than those who can.
 

mapping

Forum Patron
Patron
RVW;n3426723 said:
To sum up...……….without TH my guess is we would have done similar to what happened to Wimbledon, Bradford and Portsmouth etc and slowly (or quickly) slide down the divisions until we ended up roughly where we were in the mid 1980's...….ie 4th division, League div 2, whatever you want to call it, or to put it more succinctly...….f***ed.
Agree , and I am very grateful for all the money being pumped in , would just like to see him true to his word and get the training ground built.
 

Pilot

Reserve
mapping;n3426748 said:
Pilot;n3426656 said:
I am convinced that there is alot of "accounting" between many companies that not everyone can simply point out as fact from a link from a companies house posting , never for one moment suggested anything illegal has taken place , probably quite the opposite , money moves , share conversions , asset passing and offsetting tax , all between more than one company.

It was eye opener to those who couldnt read accounts, which I would argue is a greater proportion than those who can.
Well all those activities you quote have to be disclosed in the accounts and audited by the auditors and the EFL.
 
jakehake;n3426541 said:
Plus he's been bright enough to only fritter away a miniscule percentage of his income on a football club compared to the 7,000 idiots who contribute a much higher percentage each year to show just how much more loyal and involved in running the club they are
I don't think £5million a year will be a miniscule percentage of TH's annual income, it might be more than he actually earns each year.
 
Pilot;n3426691 said:
Some of the debt has been converted to share capital
That depends which company you look at.

TH loans cash to Deepdale PNE Holdings and this remains classified as a loan in the accounts. Deepdale PNE holdings then buys newly issued shares in Preston North End Limited and the loan is converted into an increased shareholding.
 
mapping;n3426622 said:
LostinYorkshire;n3426614 said:
Just using the chief executive exact words ,
I remember John Kay mentioning that TH had put £70million into PNE over the years but I don't remeber his exact words.

If he said there were £70million of outstanding loans, he was inaccurate, there aren't. Most of the loans and accrued interest were written off in 2014, these write downs are included in the accounts and have major implications for taxation.

When loans are written off it has major tax implications, the company that ultimately financed the loans will write them off against tax. HMRC (and the IoM Treasury) will not accept loans being written off 'willy nilly'.
 

epsilon

Reserve
Lost, one place where it's mentioned is here :
https://www.lep.co.uk/sport/football/preston-north-end/grayson-s-training-hope-1-8593229

and it says 70m since the takeover.

However, before the takeover the major shareholders had already put in around 10m. Either way, lots of money since 2010.

I'd like to ask your opinion about the 2011-12 accounts for DPNE.

It refers to liabilities of 15.19m that were transferred to Hemmings (he bought bank debts).
In the detailed accounts, there are 3 figures which seem to make up that number, as follows:
1.114m bank loans (p.8)
8.020m bank loans (p.8)
5.997m bank overdraft (p.10)
If so, is this a further bank debt that was settled :
4.300m bank overdraft (p.8 again, from memory)

Thanks in advance !
 
Lost, one place where it's mentioned is here :
https://www.lep.co.uk/sport/football/preston-north-end/grayson-s-training-hope-1-8593229

and it says 70m since the takeover.

However, before the takeover the major shareholders had already put in around 10m. Either way, lots of money since 2010.

I'd like to ask your opinion about the 2011-12 accounts for DPNE.

It refers to liabilities of 15.19m that were transferred to Hemmings (he bought bank debts).
In the detailed accounts, there are 3 figures which seem to make up that number, as follows:
1.114m bank loans (p.8)
8.020m bank loans (p.8)
5.997m bank overdraft (p.10)
If so, is this a further bank debt that was settled :
4.300m bank overdraft (p.8 again, from memory)

Thanks in advance !
I also found a quote from Ridsdale at last years Fans Forum where he said TH had put £73million into PNE.

With reference to the money owed to banks £15.4million, these were paid off and the debt transferred to TH companies. In Jan 2014 the debt was restructured and £32.3million was written off or exchanged for shares. The total debt was reduced from £53.4 million to £20.3million. This is detailed in the accounts for 2013.
 

epsilon

Reserve
Thanks Lost.

I agree. I was just surprised that there were 4 numbers, adding up to 19.5m, not 15.19m.

For info: there is a third article which predicts that the loan for 2017-18 will be 5m. I probably will find it.

There is also usually a figure in the accounts detailing 'New loans'. Hence a question :

Is this in addition to any debts that have been bought by Hemmings' company ?
(I had assumed so but then there's that 4.3m overdraft cleared which doesn't seem to be part of the 15.19m liability figure.)
 
The difference might be interest.

From what I saw all bank loans were bought by TH and other loans (FOPNE) were renegotiated and paid off over 10 years.

The only debt since 2014 is to Grovemoor Ltd (IoM).
 

epsilon

Reserve
Thanks, I'll publish the first draft of (my) figures but it may not identify when ALL of that 73m was spent, which was my original objective.
 

epsilon

Reserve
The figures below are taken from the accounts of Deepdale PNE Holdings Ltd. In each account there is a comment about the amount of money owed to the major shareholder, which is a Hemmings company. As this number increases, year by year, it can be seen that the major shareholder has put new money into DPNE.
.............. £ m
2010-11 21.5
2011-12 27.7
2012-13 49.6
..............53.4 --> 20.1 (debt restructure)
2013-14 20.6
2014-15 23.6
2015-16 28.1
2016-17 30.7

Assuming that the accounts are correct where debt to the major shareholder has been isolated from the rest, it can be seen that, by the time of the debt restructure, £ 53.4m had been put into the company.

After the restructure, debt was £ 20.1m.

A further £ 10.6m was added to that figure by the end of the 2016-17 year, for a total of £ 30.7.

On this simple analysis, there is evidence of £ 64.0m having been put into the company. That's from 53.4 + 10.6.

To give an example of why there's a bit more to this, in mid-2017 there was an article (by LEP) advising that the amount invested by Hemmings to date was £ 70m and that the figure had grown by £ 5m since mid-2016. Further, it was expected that there would be additional investment of £ 5m in 2017-18.

However, looking at that table above, the difference in money owed from 2016 to 2017 is technically £ 2.6m.

More debt being being written off is probably part of the explanation. Unless all such write-offs are detailed somewhere, it's hard to fully document the amount invested. But it's a good start.

A large sum was invested in the 2012-13 year, which is when the company's debts to the bank were purchased by Hemmings. The debt to Hemmings increased by about £ 22m. In the following year a large part of that was written off, as documented in other posts.
 

John T

Reserve
I think when we look back on his time here it will be as a 6/10.

he has the resources to allow us to compete in this league and yet the only times he has allowed any significant investment have been when we have been flirting with the drop (hopefully this time goes better than the last!)

yes he stabilised the club and his financial constraints have forced us to follow a path of recruitment that I am personally very fond of and yet it could have been so much more.


Exactly my opinion paddy
 
The figures below are taken from the accounts of Deepdale PNE Holdings Ltd. In each account there is a comment about the amount of money owed to the major shareholder, which is a Hemmings company. As this number increases, year by year, it can be seen that the major shareholder has put new money into DPNE.
.............. £ m
2010-11 21.5
2011-12 27.7
2012-13 49.6
..............53.4 --> 20.1 (debt restructure)
2013-14 20.6
2014-15 23.6
2015-16 28.1
2016-17 30.7

Assuming that the accounts are correct where debt to the major shareholder has been isolated from the rest, it can be seen that, by the time of the debt restructure, £ 53.4m had been put into the company.

After the restructure, debt was £ 20.1m.

A further £ 10.6m was added to that figure by the end of the 2016-17 year, for a total of £ 30.7.

On this simple analysis, there is evidence of £ 64.0m having been put into the company. That's from 53.4 + 10.6.
TH also puts money into the club by paying for the tax benefit his other companies use. It is included in the accounts every year.

I am pretty sure that this figure is included in the 'quoted' TH annual subsidy.
 
Top