Brexit never? Britain can still change its mind, says Article 50 autho

…and many of those clowns pushed for Brexit!

Yes, UK senior managers are a problem and Brexit has given us yet another disadvantage. Face it Libs, Brexit has been a disaster.
Depends what you mean by UK Senior managers - but I think a big majority of business leaders were dead against it. And most economists and politicians.

If you’d said Russian Senior manager managers, it would have rung more true!
 
I haven't seen this mentioned (not that I read widely on the topic)... nor am I certain to what extent Brexit is to blame, nor the importance. But it looks damning at face value.

Here's the FTSE250 graph for the last 5 years. This index has gone up less than 1% in 5 years (despite inflation being something well over 20% in that time). I could have printed the FTSE100, which has gone up by about 7% in that time... but my understanding is that the FTSE250 is more representative of UK companies.

The performances of all the other share indices (which aren't cherry picked... just the first few on the BBC Market Data website) are very closely bunched together having gone up by roughly 50%. I'm sure there are many nuances... but the difference is massive. If you take inflation into account, the value of UK PLC seems to be dropping remarkably and inexorably.


UK FTSE250

View attachment 20347

Here is Amsterdam
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And Paris
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And Frankfurt
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And the Dow Jones in New York
View attachment 20351
Are you comparing like with like, Reg? You said that you were not counting the FTSE 100 because it isn't as representative of British companies, but you are setting the FTSE 250 against share indices that are not representative of their countries in exactly the same way,

What are the charts like for indices that are more similar to the FTSE 250 and cover small and medium companies? Would suspect that they are not very different because national economies in Europe are pretty stagnant at the moment and have been for some time, just like the UK.
 
Why does everyone( almost) seem to ignore vested interests? It's what makes the world go round at the demise of the majority but for some reason many are oblivious to it. 🙂
 
<capitalist pig>
If your property, your job and your day to day spending are tied up in one economy, diversify and invest in some others in case you live somewhere tinpot
</capitalist pig>

Obviously do this about 10 years ago for the benefit of hindsight
 
Depends what you mean by UK Senior managers - but I think a big majority of business leaders were dead against it. And most economists and politicians.

If you’d said Russian Senior manager managers, it would have rung more true!
Yes, you’re probably right, what I should’ve said was far right business owners.
 
Swerved the " stock market " issue too I notice. And I'm the ostrich?
Here's a graph of UK vs European stocks over the last 5 years, guess which is the blue line.

1712183278923.png

...and yes it does matter. It's a pretty good picture of how our companies have been performing.
 
Here's a graph of UK vs European stocks over the last 5 years, guess which is the blue line.

View attachment 20354

...and yes it does matter. It's a pretty good picture of how our companies have been performing.
Can you show us a graph from 2016 to 2020? the biggest nosedive was during covid, then in 2022 then can we see a graph for January 2024 to the present day?
 
Can you show us a graph from 2016 to 2020? the biggest nosedive was during covid, then in 2022 then can we see a graph for January 2024 to the present day?
That graph includes the Covid nose dive and continues to the present day. Unfortunately I can only go back 5 years on the app I was using so can’t show 2016, I’m sure it’s findable though. From memory, there was a dip in UK shares after the referendum result too.
 
Swerved the " stock market " issue too I notice. And I'm the ostrich?

I certainly didn’t swerve anything. I can just see the way you’re going. If you deem phenomenal 50% differences over a 5-year period to be "nitpicking", I didn’t think you’re in a serious discussion.

I openly spelled out caveats in my op. If you want to discuss your stock market comment, clearly the stock market is a weird animal driven by vested interests. No arguments from me there. But is that not the same in New York, Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt… and indeed the Eurostock index (covering a range of European indices) - every single one of which have seen growth in a very narrow range of between 48 and 57%. Every one.

If there were big variations between those countries, there could be a potential argument for you there. But no... 50% is clearly par for the course… and if the UK were down at growth of 30 or 35%, we should be very concerned. But we're off the scale! We’re at <1% (or <7% if we choose the FTSE100) - this is beyond dire especially with the high inflation we’ve had obliterating values.

IMO, the way you dismissed my suggestion is just blinkered. If the difference was small, the potential to blame vested interests, poor politicians or whatever, that might be a worthwhile argument. But the difference is not just big… it’s mammoth! There's something huge, and very UK specific going on with regard to these figures. Brexit is one obvious candidate for being a leading factor.
 
Are you comparing like with like, Reg? You said that you were not counting the FTSE 100 because it isn't as representative of British companies, but you are setting the FTSE 250 against share indices that are not representative of their countries in exactly the same way,

What are the charts like for indices that are more similar to the FTSE 250 and cover small and medium companies? Would suspect that they are not very different because national economies in Europe are pretty stagnant at the moment and have been for some time, just like the UK.

My OP on this was clearly painting a broad brush picture and I did openly set out my caveats... including stating that FTSE100 has seen a rise of 7%. Sure.. the picture MIGHT look different if you look at other indices... but 7% is a million miles from the 50% par score for other European and American indices. I'd be very surprised if, whichever way you cut it, if there wasn't still be a massive difference.
 
Suggest you look at the economic basket case that is Germany
Did they leave the EU?



If we ever did rejoin we would have to use the Euro and have Schengen try selling that to the British public

As for the Government the Remainers are in charge and we are still saddled to thousands of EU rules

No,,, they didn't leave the EU. The document you linked to explains what specific problems they face.

You're right that the UK would have trouble negotiating satisfactory terms for re-entry, should we ever want it as a nation (61% currently do). We used to have a fantastic privileged position of being outside the Euro, Schengen and also had rebates on our contributions. Well done Brexit voters for throwing that away for nothing (actually... for a lot less than nothing!). Maybe we can find a way to negotiate some of that back... I wouldn't rule out that we could persuade them to let us keep the pound and be outside Schengen - but there would surely (and reasonably) be a price to pay, I guess.

Last time I looked, the government was run by committed brexiteers. I guess it wasn't as simple as they claimed to sweep away all that "red tape".
 
No,,, they didn't leave the EU. The document you linked to explains what specific problems they face.

You're right that the UK would have trouble negotiating satisfactory terms for re-entry, should we ever want it as a nation (61% currently do). We used to have a fantastic privileged position of being outside the Euro, Schengen and also had rebates on our contributions. Well done Brexit voters for throwing that away for nothing (actually... for a lot less than nothing!). Maybe we can find a way to negotiate some of that back... I wouldn't rule out that we could persuade them to let us keep the pound and be outside Schengen - but there would surely (and reasonably) be a price to pay, I guess.

Last time I looked, the government was run by committed brexiteers. I guess it wasn't as simple as they claimed to sweep away all that "red tape".

When a tory quaffer like Cash, Redwood or the corpse says 'red tape', always replace it with the word 'standards', and see if you still support his statement. And as you do it imagine taking a swim in the Thames.
 
This article has some useful data, highlights how Europe(incl Uk) is hampered by clinging onto national exchanges as a source of pride. Technically, the one way to compete with the US would be to have a quasi-Euro exchange but never going to happen(….or is it…)

Things like investment cultures vs holding cash differs around the world too, Europe and the UK still live cash under the mattress.


As for the original point of the decline in UK PLC, one of the charts is a fairly stark reminder, we were on the decline for decades. The Brexit drop was comparatively small compared to what had gone before

IMG_2953.jpeg
 
No,,, they didn't leave the EU. The document you linked to explains what specific problems they face.

You're right that the UK would have trouble negotiating satisfactory terms for re-entry, should we ever want it as a nation (61% currently do). We used to have a fantastic privileged position of being outside the Euro, Schengen and also had rebates on our contributions. Well done Brexit voters for throwing that away for nothing (actually... for a lot less than nothing!). Maybe we can find a way to negotiate some of that back... I wouldn't rule out that we could persuade them to let us keep the pound and be outside Schengen - but there would surely (and reasonably) be a price to pay, I guess.

Last time I looked, the government was run by committed brexiteers. I guess it wasn't as simple as they claimed to sweep away all that "red tape".
Be like Norway?
 
My OP on this was clearly painting a broad brush picture and I did openly set out my caveats... including stating that FTSE100 has seen a rise of 7%. Sure.. the picture MIGHT look different if you look at other indices... but 7% is a million miles from the 50% par score for other European and American indices. I'd be very surprised if, whichever way you cut it, if there wasn't still be a massive difference.
I am not saying that stock markets haven't been affected, just that you are not comparing the same things.

If you look at the indices for France and Germany that cover similar sized companies, they are also pretty flat over that time period.

Most national economies in Europe, including the UK, are struggling. Difficult times lie ahead, I fear.
 
This article has some useful data, highlights how Europe(incl Uk) is hampered by clinging onto national exchanges as a source of pride. Technically, the one way to compete with the US would be to have a quasi-Euro exchange but never going to happen(….or is it…)

Things like investment cultures vs holding cash differs around the world too, Europe and the UK still live cash under the mattress.


As for the original point of the decline in UK PLC, one of the charts is a fairly stark reminder, we were on the decline for decades. The Brexit drop was comparatively small compared to what had gone before

View attachment 20359
It is a worrying trend and, as we discussed a while back (this is not a Brexit point but a general one), Europe and the UK are struggling post covid/energy crisis - the US is doing 'socialist' things with respect to state aid and protectionism, while the Chinese are exposing Europe's lack of investment and foresight with hi-tech industry (I am no fan of Scholz, but Merkel/Schauble left an almighty mess).
 
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