Grenfell, corporate manslaughter suspected.

[raefil]

Police investigating the Grenfell Tower fire have concluded there are “reasonable grounds” to suspect the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (RBKC) and the council’s tenant management organisation (TMO) may have committed corporate manslaughter.

Chiefs from both organisations will be formally interviewed by officers as part of the criminal investigation into the tragedy that claimed at least 80 lives.

The Metropolitan Police confirmed to The Independent it had updated those affected by the fire today.

A statement circulated to those involved said an “initial assessment” of seized material and witness statements had allowed police to conclude that each organisation may have committed the offence.

Both organisations will be questioned under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007.

“We have seized a huge amount of material and taken a large number of witness statements,” the letter to those affected by the disaster said.

“After an initial assessment of that information, the officer leading the investigation has today notified Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the Kensington and Chelsea TMO that there are reasonable grounds to suspect that each organisation may have committed the offence of corporate manslaughter under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007.

“In due course, a senior representative fo each corporation will be formally interviewed by police in relation to the potential offence.”

It was unclear which senior figures will be interviewed by police and the legislation does not allow for the arrest of any individual.

A Met Police spokesperson told The Independent: “This is a complex and far reaching investigation that by its very nature will take a considerable time to complete.

“The Met has made a commitment to the families who lost loved ones in the fire and survivors that they will be kept updated, as far as we possibly can, as the investigation continues.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ington-council-kctmo-met-police-a7863616.html

 

[pnematic]

So there’s a criminal enquiry going on whilst the inquest is still underway?

Would have thought it would be prudent to await the conclusions then start criminal proceedings.

Not suggesting the Met haven’t grounds , but there’s a lot of work still to do.

 

[prestonmadhouse]

So there’s a criminal enquiry going on whilst the inquest is still underway?

Would have thought it would be prudent to await the conclusions then start criminal proceedings.

Not suggesting the Met haven’t grounds , but there’s a lot of work still to do.

Disagree Matic. First and foremost, the police have to look into things. This will have taken an age, due to many factors. I think an enquiry as been forced very soon due to the horrific circumstances.

The polices job will be to prosecute any wrongdoing, whilst the enquiry will look at how and why such a disaster happened.
That’s my thoughts on it.

 

[pnematic]

Disagree Matic. First and foremost, the police have to look into things. This will have taken an age, due to many factors. I think an enquiry as been forced very soon due to the horrific circumstances.

The polices job will be to prosecute any wrongdoing, whilst the enquiry will look at how and why such a disaster happened.
That’s my thoughts on it.

Accepted - just thinking all the” evidence “ will come out of the inquiry, then it’s all in the public domain and then take action.

Not suggesting the police are incorrect - someone’s gonna kop some shit on this

As an architect myself I m watching carefully.

 

[prestonmadhouse]

Accepted - just thinking all the” evidence “ will come out of the inquiry, then it’s all in the public domain and then take action.

Not suggesting the police are incorrect - someone’s gonna kop some shit on this

As an architect myself I m watching carefully.

If everything was done to building regs at the time then there will be no issues.
No idea how a project, like this type of renovation, works, but a building inspector looks at everything you are doing on a home extension. If the councils have failed to carry out inspections and the contractors have cut corners, then there will be prosecutions.

Just my thoughts on it Matic. You will have far more of an idea than me.
😱

 

[Lord Edgington]

Accepted - just thinking all the” evidence “ will come out of the inquiry, then it’s all in the public domain and then take action.

Not suggesting the police are incorrect - someone’s gonna kop some shit on this

As an architect myself I m watching carefully.

It's a right old situation is this one
It does look like someone somewhere is going to carry the can on this
I just cannot help thinking though that I doubt at anytime did any of the people who where involved in the redevelopment ever think of the potential of such a tragedy. But that said if they have cut corners I guess a prosecution is inevitable
The main thing for me which by the way I think there should be prosecutions is that there isn't a cover up as there was with hillsborough

 

[pnematic]

It's a right old situation is this one
It does look like someone somewhere is going to carry the can on this
I just cannot help thinking though that I doubt at anytime did any of the people who where involved in the redevelopment ever think of the potential of such a tragedy. But that said if they have cut corners I guess a prosecution is inevitable
The main thing for me which by the way I think there should be prosecutions is that there isn't a cover up as there was with hillsborough

In this tragedy there are far more parties involved , unlike Hillsborough wereby the South Yorkshire Police were able by institutional scullduggery to engineer a cover up.

Doubt any cover up would be possible given the fact that several issues and responsibilities are under public scrutiny.

 

[pnematic]

If everything was done to building regs at the time then there will be no issues.
No idea how a project, like this type of renovation, works, but a building inspector looks at everything you are doing on a home extension. If the councils have failed to carry out inspections and the contractors have cut corners, then there will be prosecutions.

Just my thoughts on it Matic. You will have far more of an idea than me.
😱

The process of design , specifications , compliance and inspection are very robust in the U.K.

Something within that process has failed. It could be communication, incompetence, non compliance etc. It could be cost cutting. If I specified a product that was cheap but didn’t comply with standards , Building Inspectors would pick it up at the plan check stage and I would have to respecify. If I specified a product that claimed to comply , then failed in use , then the product manufacturer is in trouble - or of course the actual testing process itself is not fit for purpose. The installation of the product may have been incorrect - any gaps behind the cladding causes a chimney effect , fire seals need fitting at all openings and horizontally and vertically at party wall and floors

Even if it had been fitted incorrectly , site inspection would have revealed this and it would have been condemned until it was put right.

 

[Dirty Harry]

Thanks for the above insight, Matic.

 

[pnematic]

Thanks for the above insight, Matic.

No problem mate , obviously it’s critical to what I do.

 

[prestonmadhouse]

It certainly is interesting. The sad thing is, the police have found something that they feel is unlawful. The enquiry, no doubt, will find all the failings that are lawful, i.e. sprinkler systems, fire alarms, evacuation procedures etc.
Thanks for the info Matic.

 

[pnematic]

It certainly is interesting. The sad thing is, the police have found something that they feel is unlawful. The enquiry, no doubt, will find all the failings that are lawful, i.e. sprinkler systems, fire alarms, evacuation procedures etc.
Thanks for the info Matic.

There are of course 2 issues here.

One is why the fire spread so quickly , which I tried to cover albeit briefly.

The other is the means of escape of occupants and the containment of the fire. The fire detection system should trigger the smoke detector ( hopefully mains wired) or heat detector in the kitchen ( if fitted). Buildings are designed for quick evacuation - the flat door self closed, fire seals and contains the fire for 30 mins. The occupants travel down the protected corridor ( passing said ablaze flat safely) - then through more fire doors to the escape shaft - the stairs....and out.

Occupants were told to stay put - then that order changed. More to come on that one no doubt.

Sprinklers are not mandatory in England - but in Wales , they are.

We need to remember that every existing building cannot comply with current building regulations ,the regs change regularly, retrofitting is a never ending task. My house doesn’t comply wit today’s regs.

However refits and refurbs must comply .... and this is where things have gone awry.

Thanks for your interest.

 

[northender0602]

It's a right old situation is this one
It does look like someone somewhere is going to carry the can on this
I just cannot help thinking though that I doubt at anytime did any of the people who where involved in the redevelopment ever think of the potential of such a tragedy. But that said if they have cut corners I guess a prosecution is inevitable
The main thing for me which by the way I think there should be prosecutions is that there isn't a cover up as there was with hillsborough

Trouble is people will cut corners, with the mindset of “what’s the chances of that happening” sadly it has and you are right someone is going to have to face up to this.

 

[Regardless]

It's a right old situation is this one
It does look like someone somewhere is going to carry the can on this
I just cannot help thinking though that I doubt at anytime did any of the people who where involved in the redevelopment ever think of the potential of such a tragedy. But that said if they have cut corners I guess a prosecution is inevitable
The main thing for me which by the way I think there should be prosecutions is that there isn't a cover up as there was with hillsborough

I think that's a generous view.

 

[northender0602]

There are of course 2 issues here.

One is why the fire spread so quickly , which I tried to cover albeit briefly.

The other is the means of escape of occupants and the containment of the fire. The fire detection system should trigger the smoke detector ( hopefully mains wired) or heat detector in the kitchen ( if fitted). Buildings are designed for quick evacuation - the flat door self closed, fire seals and contains the fire for 30 mins. The occupants travel down the protected corridor ( passing said ablaze flat safely) - then through more fire doors to the escape shaft - the stairs....and out.

Occupants were told to stay put - then that order changed. More to come on that one no doubt.

Sprinklers are not mandatory in England - but in Wales , they are.

We need to remember that every existing building cannot comply with current building regulations ,the regs change regularly, retrofitting is a never ending task. My house doesn’t comply wit today’s regs.

However refits and refurbs must comply .... and this is where things have gone awry.

Thanks for your interest.

From what I first heard the fire spread quickly because the cladding used was of a cheaper standard and not as fire resistant, there were gaps behind the cladding which should not have been there and the window on the flat with the fire was left open the appliance which caused the fire was under the window, wondering should there not be extinguishers or a fire blanket in rented housing such as this, would it have made a difference?

 

[pnematic]

From what I first heard the fire spread quickly because the cladding used was of a cheaper standard and not as fire resistant, there were gaps behind the cladding which should not have been there and the window on the flat with the fire was left open the appliance which caused the fire was under the window, wondering should there not be extinguishers or a fire blanket in rented housing such as this, would it have made a difference?

The flame spread of the cladding and the gaps behind it are key factors in the investigation. The cladding should have a resistance to spread of flame - if it hasn’t got certification , it cannot be used. Either it wasn’t fit for purpose or the testing procedure failed.

Windows, open or not are not required to be fire resistant ( unless they are near an adjacent boundary and are over a certain size) - hence the requirement for fire stopping around the windows. People leave windows open - it’s impossible to legislate otherwise.

Legislation is focused on detection , containment and evacuation , not firefighting by the occupants, hence no requirement for fire blankets or a extinguishers. Building Regulations don’t discriminate between rented or private dwellings but landlords have to meet other standards.

Even if I willingly attempted to specify an unsuitable product , for cost cutting or whatever reason , somewhere in the process the safety net would reveal my deeds. The otherwise robust systems and procedures have failed , its finding why and where within that system the hole is .

 

[raefil]

The report, finally released today, is absolutely damning of almost every agency involved
government, damned
corporates damned
local authorities damned

Starmer has said there will be prosecutions.

 

[BeteNoir]

I just find it amazing how combustible material gets to be used. Everything we su p plied to London Underground or coal board had to be low fire low smoke and low toxicity. There was a very tight spec to meet. I haven’t commented up to now just shaking my head in disbelief.

 

[beagleman]

What i dont get is that if the builders used sub standard materials then how did it get the ok from building inspection?

 

[raefil]

What i dont get is that if the builders used sub standard materials then how did it get the ok from building inspection?

From what Im hearing the materials the companies provided for inspection, deliberately, was NOT the materials used in the construction process.