Back Bench MP Boris Johnson

[sliper]

The electorate has, in recent decades, been shown to be incapable of thinking long term. sliper was bang on with most of his post.

High Street is just one (critical) example. So was cutting 20000 police officers. So were many aspects of austerity. Cutting education. Cutting music, art because they “don’t pay”. Culling youth clubs. Plastic packaging, environmental pillaging and rampant consumerism. Death of pub culture in favour of supermarket alcohol sales. There are many more.
Brexit? Is that also the same? Brexit “thinkers” would argue that that project is all about long termism. . But IMO the vast majority of leave voters thought of only short termism - things like what was on the side of the bus (stop sending the EU £380M/week) rather than considering the true consequences long term.

So as sad and damaging as the decline of the High Street is the electorate don't seem that bothered for now at least.

I'm as guilty as the next man I buy plenty online.. but I do believe ultimately we will be forced to travel further and pay more for things we can't buy online.

I thought it would somehow get back to Brexit...

One little counter point to your argument.. I doubt any amount of debate is going to change minds at this stage..

How many new world changing companies and products have emerged from either the UK or the wider EU in the last 20 years ?

I see Brexit as a wider call from the electorate for radical change in the light of the above.. that the culture in the EU is pro big multi layered government and regulation and basically blind to risk and innovation. The High St being a symptom of a wider malaise caused by the way we have been doing things.. not just here but right across the EU.

You seem to be saying "stick with the EU.. even though there really isn't a lot of evidence it is working" the best it could be described as is "managed decline" others like me are saying "get out of the EU because it isn't going to change and we are then free to develop a more business and risk friendly system." and we ca hold our politicians accountable for success or otherwise of this.

Why can't the European countries achieve year on year 6-7% growth rates like some parts of the world ? I believe if you look seriously at the answers to those questions you have to conclude there is something about the EU system (of which the UK has been a part) that is leading to relative but inexorable decline.

So yes I would argue that Brexit is very much a medium to long term change of strategy.. and as with every change it will lead to new opportunities that we would be less able to achieve while still in that club. Whether this country is awake to those new opportunities that rapid technological change is creating is quite another thing... but the EU certainly shows little sign of leading this change.

The saddest part of the whole Brexit debate for me.. is the seeming unwillingness of the younger generation (if social media is anything to go by).. to "seize the day" on this. I can't help feeling that is another symptom of our general decline.

 

[raefil]

I thought it would somehow get back to Brexit...

One little counter point.. how many new world changing companies and products have emerged from either the UK or the wider EU in the last 20 years ?

I see Brexit as a wider call from the electorate for radical change in the light of the above.. that the culture in the EU is pro big multi layered government and regulation and basically blind to risk and innovation. The High St being a symptom of a wider malaise caused by the way we have been doing things.. not just here but right across the EU.

You seem to be saying "stick with the EU.. even though there really isn't a lot of evidence it is working" the best it could be described as is "managed decline" others like me are saying "get out of the EU because it isn't going to change and we are then free to develop a more business and risk friendly system."

Why can't the European countries achieve year on year 6-7% growth rates like some parts of the world ? I believe if you look seriously at the answers to those questions you have to conclude there is something about the EU system (of which the UK has been apart) that is leading to inexorable relative decline.

So yes I would argue that Brexit is very much a medium to long term change of strategy.. and as with every change it will lead to new opportunities that we would be less able to achieve while still in that club. Whether this country is awake to those new opportunities that rapid technological change is creating is another thing.

The saddest part of the whole Brexit debate for me.. is the seeming unwillingness of the younger generation (if social medai is anything to go by).. to "seize the day" on this. I can't help feeling that is another symptom of our general decline.

An example of the problem for town centre retail.

Ordered a pair of footy boots for one of my daughters. From JD sports. I could pick them up at either the Store in Preston Town Centre or the one on Deepdale retail park.

It was a no brainer, parking easy at Deepdale and the extra shopping we did was at M & S and wilkos.

 

[sliper]

An example of the problem for town centre retail.

Ordered a pair of footy boots for one of my daughters. From JD sports. I could pick them up at either the Store in Preston Town Centre or the one on Deepdale retail park.

It was a no brainer, parking easy at Deepdale and the extra shopping we did was at M & S and wilkos.

Yep.. who makes it difficult to park in town centres even for a few minutes to pick up goods ?

 

[Nobber]

I know you are, you said you are, so what am I then ?

A new low.......

 

[portisheadpete]

I'm as guilty as the next man I buy plenty online.. but I do believe ultimately we will be forced to travel further and pay more for things we can't buy online.

I thought it would somehow get back to Brexit...

One little counter point to your argument.. I doubt any amount of debate is going to change minds at this stage..

How many new world changing companies and products have emerged from either the UK or the wider EU in the last 20 years ?

I see Brexit as a wider call from the electorate for radical change in the light of the above.. that the culture in the EU is pro big multi layered government and regulation and basically blind to risk and innovation. The High St being a symptom of a wider malaise caused by the way we have been doing things.. not just here but right across the EU.

You seem to be saying "stick with the EU.. even though there really isn't a lot of evidence it is working" the best it could be described as is "managed decline" others like me are saying "get out of the EU because it isn't going to change and we are then free to develop a more business and risk friendly system." and we ca hold our politicians accountable for success or otherwise of this.

Why can't the European countries achieve year on year 6-7% growth rates like some parts of the world ? I believe if you look seriously at the answers to those questions you have to conclude there is something about the EU system (of which the UK has been a part) that is leading to relative but inexorable decline.

So yes I would argue that Brexit is very much a medium to long term change of strategy.. and as with every change it will lead to new opportunities that we would be less able to achieve while still in that club. Whether this country is awake to those new opportunities that rapid technological change is creating is quite another thing... but the EU certainly shows little sign of leading this change.

The saddest part of the whole Brexit debate for me.. is the seeming unwillingness of the younger generation (if social media is anything to go by).. to "seize the day" on this. I can't help feeling that is another symptom of our general decline.

Please dont blame the younger generation for what our generation has created for them and which now manipulates their persuasions and preferences from birth, managed through an increasingly capitlist influenced education system. And then as soon as a voice of reason is heard in Greta, its lampooned and discredited. We've had our day and pissed it up the wall. The same failures from the failed generation are now directing Brexit so expect the worst. Your grandchildren face a future as battery hen packers in an offshore hell.

 

[jakehake]

I'm as guilty as the next man I buy plenty online.. but I do believe ultimately we will be forced to travel further and pay more for things we can't buy online.

I thought it would somehow get back to Brexit...

One little counter point to your argument.. I doubt any amount of debate is going to change minds at this stage..

How many new world changing companies and products have emerged from either the UK or the wider EU in the last 20 years ?

I see Brexit as a wider call from the electorate for radical change in the light of the above.. that the culture in the EU is pro big multi layered government and regulation and basically blind to risk and innovation. The High St being a symptom of a wider malaise caused by the way we have been doing things.. not just here but right across the EU.

You seem to be saying "stick with the EU.. even though there really isn't a lot of evidence it is working" the best it could be described as is "managed decline" others like me are saying "get out of the EU because it isn't going to change and we are then free to develop a more business and risk friendly system." and we ca hold our politicians accountable for success or otherwise of this.

Why can't the European countries achieve year on year 6-7% growth rates like some parts of the world ? I believe if you look seriously at the answers to those questions you have to conclude there is something about the EU system (of which the UK has been a part) that is leading to relative but inexorable decline.

So yes I would argue that Brexit is very much a medium to long term change of strategy.. and as with every change it will lead to new opportunities that we would be less able to achieve while still in that club. Whether this country is awake to those new opportunities that rapid technological change is creating is quite another thing... but the EU certainly shows little sign of leading this change.

The saddest part of the whole Brexit debate for me.. is the seeming unwillingness of the younger generation (if social media is anything to go by).. to "seize the day" on this. I can't help feeling that is another symptom of our general decline.

The issue there is the size of the likes of China and the US mean they can self fund the startups and the unicorns(the proper "unicorn ventures" not the brexit parody unicorn) from within their own entity. The EU is multiple economies as well as one large economy, but rather than fostering more collaborative projects anyone would think some nations had become isolationist and putting up barriers to cross border investments, thus those companies that have come along are ultimately smaller than those in the US and Asia for example. Likewise no one is going to consider starting a Google, or Amazon or AliBaba in Europe now as technically there is no need. But on a smaller scale companies like Spotify and Just Eat have carved out multibillion dollar valuations so it is possible still. Though again, whether people will choose to fund into EU or the UK whilst it fragments further is anyones guess, will be a gamble for any investors in the current climate.

Edit: technology and challenger banks are one thing that looks like it may be prosperous but most of those banks don't need to become huge (or more likely will merge with each other potentially) to start challenging the bigger players. Like the utility markets, the spreading of suppliers doesn't create a market where someone can become huge in some ways, but just provides more diversity and consumer choice

 

[Nobber]

Please dont blame the younger generation for what our generation has created for them and which now manipulates their persuasions and preferences from birth, managed through an increasingly capitlist influenced education system. And then as soon as a voice of reason is heard in Greta, its lampooned and discredited. We've had our day and pissed it up the wall. The same failures from the failed generation are now directing Brexit so expect the worst. Your grandchildren face a future as battery hen packers in an offshore hell.

It was already heading in the wrong direction. The generation to blame are the ones that signed us up in the first place.

 

[26-0]

It was already heading in the wrong direction. The generation to blame are the ones that signed us up in the first place.
[/QUOTE

Conservative PM Ted Heath took the decision to sign us up to the EU without any public vote didn't he.

The main problems that the younger generation will face aren't the fault of the EU though.

 

[portisheadpete]

It was already heading in the wrong direction. The generation to blame are the ones that signed us up in the first place.

Youre completely mad and off the wall if you think the last decades of profligacy and lack of planning for the decline in the demand for labour are the fault of eu membership. Its our politicians failure to be up to the task and demonstrate leadership and vision that is the root cause. Its true that out of eu might make it easier for a visionary economic model to prosper. But at the moment we have a leader whose sole aim is to be in charge and whose sole concerns are his girlfriend and when his next crate of Krug is arriving.

 

[Nobber]

Conservative PM Ted Heath took the decision to sign us up to the EU without any public vote didn't he.

The main problems that the younger generation will face aren't the fault of the EU though.

Yeh, Heath lied. The government lied. The EEC lied. The generation of that era voted to stay (wrongly).

But, the EU are massively to blame. If they had been just a trade partner then none of this would have happened. But greed and power are what they want. So yeh, they're massively to blame.

 

[flippinheck]

Conservative PM Ted Heath took the decision to sign us up to the EU without any public vote didn't he.

The main problems that the younger generation will face aren't the fault of the EU though.

Not the European Union though. Just the common market. Oh and there was a referendum in 1975.

 

[truenorthender]

A new low.......

Listen..... I am whatever you say I am, if I wasn't then why would you say I am? I dunno maybe it's just the way I am...

 

[portisheadpete]

Yeh, Heath lied. The government lied. The EEC lied. The generation of that era voted to stay (wrongly).

But, the EU are massively to blame. If they had been just a trade partner then none of this would have happened. But greed and power are what they want. So yeh, they're massively to blame.

Then you are completely mad. Presumably youll buy into the next Cummings inspired conspiracy to apportion blame for the next step in our steady decline. Weve been in control of our own decline make no mistake. Whether as a national govt or leading player in dictating eu policy. Its deeply worrying that people lap up a blame culture when the arch exponents of aportioning blame and shirking responsibilty have just been given the keys to the city. 1930s all over. The next generation but one can never truly learn

 

[raefil]

Not the European Union though. Just the common market. Oh and there was a referendum in 1975.

Im sure that Nobber will point out the secret papers that heath hid from the British public.

 

[Nobber]

Then you are completely mad. Presumably youll buy into the next Cummings inspired conspiracy to apportion blame for the next step in our steady decline. Weve been in control of our own decline make no mistake. Whether as a national govt or leading player in dictating eu policy. Its deeply worrying that people lap up a blame culture when the arch exponents of aportioning blame and shirking responsibilty have just been given the keys to the city. 1930s all over. The next generation but one can never truly learn

So you don't like the blame culture while blaming those that voted to leave the eu.

Don't talk wet.

 

[Nobber]

Im sure that Nobber will point out the secret papers that heath hid from the British public.

Exactly.

Lying bastards.

 

[portisheadpete]

I'm sure the fat, philandering fuckwit is exactly what the country needs. It's not as if he's a proven liar, the worst foreign secretary ever and an over privileged Etonian wanker is it?

Thought Essex's succinct and accurate resume of our current leader was worth bringing forward. Just in case the passage of time has allowed the less vigilant amongst us to forget his real credentials and his ability to deal with the great issues of the day. For those of you that thought it was a great idea to punt for change even when if it meant (and you were warned) letting a loon into power. Anarchy is better than the status quo was the line at one point. Well done. The poor bastards sleeping in bin bags o/s m&s in Bristol centre are so pleased youve helped exted their misery by allowing a charlatan into power who will just deny their plight.

So you don't like the blame culture while blaming those that voted to leave the eu.

Don't talk wet.

I dont blame anybody particularly. More a collective failure to derive plan for the future that makes sense for everybody economically and the environment. Im none the wiser where we're heading and the present govt espouses economic values akin to EU. Im afraid you are an example of a perpetuation of a blame culture that avoids addressing issues. Since it simplifies that once the nominated cause (ie the eu in your case) is removed then nirvana may flow, whether peaceably or through anarchy as you once suggested.

 

[Nobber]

I dont blame anybody particularly. More a collective failure to derive plan for the future that makes sense for everybody economically and the environment. Im none the wiser where we're heading and the present govt espouses economic values akin to EU. Im afraid you are an example of a perpetuation of a blame culture that avoids addressing issues. Since it simplifies that once the nominated cause (ie the eu in your case) is removed then nirvana may flow, whether peaceably or through anarchy as you once suggested.

And I can simply rewrite your point.

I don’t blame anyone in particular. More a collective failure to derive a plan for a future that makes sense for EVERYBODY economically and not just those that already have cash. I’m none the wiser where the eu is heading other than feeding the rich and enforcing austerity on whole nations. I’m afraid you are an example of a perpetuation of an elite, undemocratic body that is getting more and more empire like and you refuse to address these issues.......actually quite the opposite. You actually promote these issues whilst refusing to see the facts.

Nowhere have I said that Nirvana May flow. The refusal for huge bodies to agree to trade in a decent manner that benefits the vast majority and not just the elite is the reason that peace will struggle and anarchy will gain momentum.......as we currently see in France.

So there you go. I will continue to vote for what is right, which isn’t always the status quo. Brave people make difficult decisions and can only pray that those in power listen and deliver before its to late.

 

[26-0]

Not the European Union though. Just the common market. Oh and there was a referendum in 1975.

Well if we're being petty it was the "Common Market" not the common market and there was a referendum three years after we'd joined asking whether we should remain in or leave.

 

[portisheadpete]

And I can simply rewrite your point.

I don’t blame anyone in particular. More a collective failure to derive a plan for a future that makes sense for EVERYBODY economically and not just those that already have cash. I’m none the wiser where the eu is heading other than feeding the rich and enforcing austerity on whole nations. I’m afraid you are an example of a perpetuation of an elite, undemocratic body that is getting more and more empire like and you refuse to address these issues.......actually quite the opposite. You actually promote these issues whilst refusing to see the facts.

Nowhere have I said that Nirvana May flow. The refusal for huge bodies to agree to trade in a decent manner that benefits the vast majority and not just the elite is the reason that peace will struggle and anarchy will gain momentum.......as we currently see in France.

So there you go. I will continue to vote for what is right, which isn’t always the status quo. Brave people make difficult decisions and can only pray that those in power listen and deliver before its to late.

Well done. Youve accepted the displacement of responsibility of all our ills onto the EU. I dont albeit Im agnostic whether we are in or out. I can see advantages of being out but not with the current clown. As I said, I hope you wont perpetuate your myopia when Johnson blames our next calamity on the Scots, Irish, eco warriors, civil servants, judges, refugees etc. Since youre so impressionable.