The second worst attacking team in the division (XG and stats)

[Skin & Rathbone]

The three goals all season is the big clue though, isn’t it?

Well yes, but as I said xG, as with other stats, should be used with multiple stat to get a full picture with other stats. The picture here is he underperformed because he should have had more goals with the chances he had.

 

[GallyNuge]

Even if he doesn't, what evidence do you see that we're capable of keeping it tight? We're bottom three for clean sheets and 21st for goals conceded per game.

How do you think we're playing now? Do you think we're being too expensive? If so why are we 21st for shots on target per match and 21st for big chances created?

I look at that and see a team that can't create and can't defend. How does keeping Lowe around fix that?

My point is simple, by playing a more expansive game, the flaws of the defence and lack of goalscorers up front, only become more obvious.

Ryan Lowe has got this side 8th based on his tactics, not quality of players. You might not like those tactics, but lets face it, every squad and first XI above in the League is stronger and there's a few that are which sit below.

Sunderland are arguably the most expansive side in the League, at times too expansive, yet they only sit one point above Lowe's side. Playing more expansively drops more points, it doesn't gain them. Then there's Blackburn, who are exceptionally expansive too, only drawing one all season, and they're a point below.

 

[Skin & Rathbone]

My point is simple, by playing a more expansive game, the flaws of the defence and lack of goalscorers up front, only become more obvious.

I understood the point, and I haven't advocated for a more expansive game. I've made the point we aren't creating or defending well. I would like at least one of these problems fixed.

So if you are correct this squad is incapable of playing more expansive football, where is the evidence that under Lowe, they are capable of keeping it tight?

Ryan Lowe has got this side 8th based on his tactics, not quality of players. You might not like those tactics, but lets face it, every squad and first XI above in the League is stronger and there's a few that are which sit below.

1) Who brought in those players?
2) Putting to one side your argument works in reverse (look at the teams we beat surely they're weak teams we should have been beating anyway), it's those same tactics that have got us three wins in the last fifteen matches. At what point does Lowe become accountable in your eyes?
3) Do you honestly believe there is no-one better available? If there are, why not go for them?

 

[noelpne]

I can't help but think an appalling run of form is coming this season.

You mean...... it's not started yet ?🤬

 

[PrestonUltras81]

My point is simple, by playing a more expansive game, the flaws of the defence and lack of goalscorers up front, only become more obvious.

Ryan Lowe has got this side 8th based on his tactics, not quality of players. You might not like those tactics, but lets face it, every squad and first XI above in the League is stronger and there's a few that are which sit below.

Sunderland are arguably the most expansive side in the League, at times too expansive, yet they only sit one point above Lowe's side. Playing more expansively drops more points, it doesn't gain them. Then there's Blackburn, who are exceptionally expansive too, only drawing one all season, and they're a point below.

Why are you on here with your sanctimonious claptrap? Rich telling us that we are over achieving coming from a fan of a cl ub that sacked Claudio Ranieri and Rogers ........ were they not doing a good job keeping you in the promised land? Or do you seriously think LCFC has a devine right to play with the big boys? Get away with you! HAHAHAHAHA

 

[Rodney Bewes]

You could say that about Lowe's squad too right?

Just because Ipswich are overachieving and taking full advantage of their promotion momentum, it should not be used as a yardstick to measure Lowe's performance. Especially when it can be argued Lowe has also got PNE overachieving, just not to the same levels. With this squad 8th is performing above (realistic) expectations.

He's got the squad midtable and we've finished midtable every season since we've been back in the Championship. We're 8th currently but with the way we're performing, we'd be lucky if we were midtable by the end of the season.

Woodman, Storey, Lindsay, Hughes, Brady, Cunningham, Bauer, Ledson, Browne, Whiteman, Holmes, Evans, Keane, and Riis have all played over 100+ Championship games.

Players from our squad who haven't made 100+ Championship appearances:

• Liam Millar - he's played in the Scottish Prem, Swiss top flight, Europa Conference League, CONCACAF Gold Cup, and the World Cup.
• Milutin Osmaijic - he's played in La Liga and the Portuguese top flight
• Ali McCann - he's played in the Scottish Prem and the Europa League

All three are internationals.

Lowe's working with players who have more experience of playing at a higher level.

Also Lowe's been financially backed more than our previous managers. We definitely broke our 23 year old transfer fee record this year. No one is completely sure whether we broke it with the Ben Whiteman transfer a few years ago but we definitely broke it with the Osmaijic transfer. Our owners were also willing to spend double the amount we spent on Osmaijic on Tom Cannon this summer.

If you consider Ipswich a fluke, there's other teams of a similar/smaller size to us who have reached the playoffs/automatics since we rejoined the league:
- Luton
- Coventry
- Huddersfield
- Brentford
- Barnsley

Lowe hasn't achieved more than Simon Grayson, Alex Neil, or Frankie McAvoy achieved with us under the same ownership structure. You can give him credit for having us 1st in the table at one point but Alex Neil has 1st at one point and we still finished 9th. He managed it later in the season as well. All that matters is where you finish and currently, only Millwall and Rotherham have been in worse form since we finished our early winning streak 15 matches ago.

 

[Durutti]

My point is simple, by playing a more expansive game, the flaws of the defence and lack of goalscorers up front, only become more obvious.

Your point is bizarre and isn't backed up by data or what we are seeing on the pitch. If we were like last season's starting run, I would see your point. Loads of clean sheets, etc. but we are very near the worst defence in the league. So the solution is to be less expansive? We aren't scoring either.

Regarding the league position, literally everything, XG XGA and performances in recent form as well as a 5-1 drubbing last game surely suggest to you we won't be where we are now in a month? Surely? So how is it relevant when it was obviously just a flash in the pan?

You mention the other teams like Rovers and Sunderland. Both underlying stats on XG/XGA would suggest they will be much, much higher in the league come the end of the season.

I'll ask again, are you just suggesting we keep going with Lowe? This is relegation form sprinkled on top of a good start.

 

[Gordon Bennett]

You could say that about Lowe's squad too right?

Just because Ipswich are overachieving and taking full advantage of their promotion momentum, it should not be used as a yardstick to measure Lowe's performance. Especially when it can be argued Lowe has also got PNE overachieving, just not to the same levels. With this squad 8th is performing above (realistic) expectations.

Nurse!

 

[Mel Tottoh]

so we're the second worst attacking team using XG and the second worst defensive team ( only Rotherham have actually conceded more ) .

Not a great testament to 2 years of Lowe's management and coaching is it ?!

 

[RibbletonWhite2.0]

Which again brings up the question - Does Lowe have the players to play more expansively?

There's no point in me bringing up all the stats again, but I don't know how much more proof you need and why you oppose such stats. Lowe doesn't have reliable goalscorers at this level, whilst he also has a pretty slow defence/midfield, which is so easy to expose for pace on the transition.

It's no surprise the only clean sheet he has had recently was the game where his side had the least possession. The more expansive he gets, the more it makes so clear the weaknesses at both ends of the pitch. Boring football is the best way for his side to grind at results, as the reality is, they're weak at both ends compared to a lot of the division.

No one expects this team to play expansive football. Gung-ho football like Peterborough played under fergie junior would see us relegated. If anyone did expect us to play like that that then they are deluded.

However what fans rightly expect is to see us have a go. Playing defensive just to see us lose anyway is embarrassing. We had four shots on target in four games. That is drastic to say the least.

Boring football is what we have played for months. The only difference is we are playing boring football and losing. In fact when we do have a do we win.

Now take your patronising shite elsewhere. I can’t wait till you go up so we don’t have to listen to your patronising bollocks.

 

[GallyNuge]

Your point is bizarre and isn't backed up by data or what we are seeing on the pitch. If we were like last season's starting run, I would see your point. Loads of clean sheets, etc. but we are very near the worst defence in the league. So the solution is to be less expansive? We aren't scoring either.

Regarding the league position, literally everything, XG XGA and performances in recent form as well as a 5-1 drubbing last game surely suggest to you we won't be where we are now in a month? Surely? So how is it relevant when it was obviously just a flash in the pan?

You mention the other teams like Rovers and Sunderland. Both underlying stats on XG/XGA would suggest they will be much, much higher in the league come the end of the season.

I'll ask again, are you just suggesting we keep going with Lowe? This is relegation form sprinkled on top of a good start.

You're right, I don't believe this squad will be 8th in a month, the early season form was a flash in the pan, I've never argued any differently. Normal service is resuming, and this bunch of players will finish the season if a league position which denotes their quality.

You claim to be all about stats, yet you fail to bring any up to prove that these players should be doing better than they're.
In fact it's quite ironic really, that Lowe has got Will Keane's second highest season total in this league when not even at the half way stage, and also Duane Holmes is just one goal away from his best scoring season ever in the Championship.

Beyond your PNE tinted glasses, where are your stats to suggest these players are capable of challenging for play offs? They're far more likely to be battling relegation, as they have done throughout their careers.

Woodman, Storey, Lindsay, Hughes, Brady, Cunningham, Bauer, Ledson, Browne, Whiteman, Holmes, Evans, Keane, and Riis have all played over 100+ Championship games.

Players from our squad who haven't made 100+ Championship appearances:

• Liam Millar - he's played in the Scottish Prem, Swiss top flight, Europa Conference League, CONCACAF Gold Cup, and the World Cup.
• Milutin Osmaijic - he's played in La Liga and the Portuguese top flight
• Ali McCann - he's played in the Scottish Prem and the Europa League

All three are internationals.

To be fair Rodney, you've argued the point very easily for me here. As you say, a bunch of bang average Championship players, who have played at this level for a large amount of games for one simple reason...This is their level.

Also, claiming those players played at a 'higher level', is a bit disingenuous no?
Osmajic is a failed La Liga striker.
As for McCann and Millar, they were playing in a League worse than the Championship, the Scottish Prem is not a higher level at all.


I'd suggest a few watch the Birmingham v Leicester game from tonight and Leeds v Ipswich at the weekend, to really see how far behind this squad is, it's miles away regardless of Lowe.

 

[Mer5eywhite]

You're right, I don't believe this squad will be 8th in a month, the early season form was a flash in the pan, I've never argued any differently. Normal service is resuming, and this bunch of players will finish the season if a league position which denotes their quality.

You claim to be all about stats, yet you fail to bring any up to prove that these players should be doing better than they're.
In fact it's quite ironic really, that Lowe has got Will Keane's second highest season total in this league when not even at the half way stage, and also Duane Holmes is just one goal away from his best scoring season ever in the Championship.

Beyond your PNE tinted glasses, where are your stats to suggest these players are capable of challenging for play offs? They're far more likely to be battling relegation, as they have done throughout their careers.



To be fair Rodney, you've argued the point very easily for me here. As you say, a bunch of bang average Championship players, who have played at this level for a large amount of games for one simple reason...This is their level.

Also, claiming those players played at a 'higher level', is a bit disingenuous no?
Osmajic is a failed La Liga striker.
As for McCann and Millar, they were playing in a League worse than the Championship, the Scottish Prem is not a higher level at all.


I'd suggest a few watch the Birmingham v Leicester game from tonight and Leeds v Ipswich at the weekend, to really see how far behind this squad is, it's miles away regardless of Lowe.

Fucking hell you’re dull.

 

[GallyNuge]

Fucking hell you’re dull.

Rather be dull than delusional. Probably why I agree with Lowe compared to some of you lot.

 

[noelpne]

But......Lowe's delusional.
He thinks it's "all the players fault"
He thinks he's so good that the Club don't actually need a Coach, either.

It takes a Good Honest man with Balls to admit they are wrong .
He whines.

 

[Mer5eywhite]

Rather be dull than delusional. Probably why I agree with Lowe compared to some of you lot.

Duller than the East Midlands.
Quite a challenge.
Well done

 

[Skin & Rathbone]

To be fair Rodney, you've argued the point very easily for me here. As you say, a bunch of bang average Championship players, who have played at this level for a large amount of games for one simple reason...This is their level.

That's rather disingenuous. Rodney was clearly responding to your point about squad quality by pointing out that Lowe is working with players who have been playing a higher level than Ipswich (who mostly have players who played at League One level), yet they're in the top two. Why are Ipswich different to us then?

You're right, I don't believe this squad will be 8th in a month, the early season form was a flash in the pan, I've never argued any differently. Normal service is resuming, and this bunch of players will finish the season if a league position which denotes their quality.

You claim to be all about stats, yet you fail to bring any up to prove that these players should be doing better than they're.

While I didn't make the point you're responding to, I'm happy to point to evidence that some of these players can play better.

Freddie Woodman - 20 clean sheets in 45 matches, conceding just 38 when he was with Swansea. Last season with us 59 goals conceded and 17 clean sheets. This season he only has three clean sheets and has conceded 38 already. Is this him at his best? His player traits suggest he is being used as a sweeper, yet his distribution is one of the worst in the league. Is that him being used to his best ability?

Daniel Johnson and Alan Browne, two players who were top scorers for us previously only got one goal between the two of them last season despite being attacking midfielders. Was that them being used to the best of their ability?

Shall I point you to Ben Whiteman's passing stats too? He has completed fewer successful passes per 90 during this current season and last. Quite pivotal for a "quarterback" to complete more passes isn't it? Is he being used to the best of his ability?

Do you think Lowe's attempts to play Ali McCann as an attacking midfielder last season paid off too?

But beyond picking out individual players, again let's look at the whole picture. We are in the bottom three for attacking xG, bottom four for shots on goal per match, bottom three for accurate passes per match, bottom three for clean sheets and bottom four for goals conceded per game.

Since you dodged my questions, I'll ask them again.
1) Who brought in those players? If they aren't good enough, shouldn't the guy who signed them and brought in his own scouting team be responsible?
2) At what point does Lowe become accountable in your eyes?
3) Do you honestly believe there is no-one available who can improve this team? If there is someone available, why not sack Lowe and go for them?

 

[GallyNuge]

That's rather disingenuous. Rodney was clearly responding to your point about squad quality by pointing out that Lowe is working with players who have been playing a higher level than Ipswich (who mostly have players who played at League One level), yet they're in the top two. Why are Ipswich different to us then?



While I didn't make the point you're responding to, I'm happy to point to evidence that some of these players can play better.

Freddie Woodman - 20 clean sheets in 45 matches, conceding just 38 when he was with Swansea. Last season with us 59 goals conceded and 17 clean sheets. This season he only has three clean sheets and has conceded 38 already. Is this him at his best? His player traits suggest he is being used as a sweeper, yet his distribution is one of the worst in the league. Is that him being used to his best ability?

Daniel Johnson and Alan Browne, two players who were top scorers for us previously only got one goal between the two of them last season despite being attacking midfielders. Was that them being used to the best of their ability?

Shall I point you to Ben Whiteman's passing stats too? He has completed fewer successful passes per 90 during this current season and last. Quite pivotal for a "quarterback" to complete more passes isn't it? Is he being used to the best of his ability?

Do you think Lowe's attempts to play Ali McCann as an attacking midfielder last season paid off too?

But beyond picking out individual players, again let's look at the whole picture. We are in the bottom three for attacking xG, bottom four for shots on goal per match, bottom three for accurate passes per match, bottom three for clean sheets and bottom four for goals conceded per game.

Since you dodged my questions, I'll ask them again.
1) Who brought in those players? If they aren't good enough, shouldn't the guy who signed them and brought in his own scouting team be responsible?
2) At what point does Lowe become accountable in your eyes?
3) Do you honestly believe there is no-one available who can improve this team? If there is someone available, why not sack Lowe and go for them?

We have different interpretations of 'improve' though. I don't think there is a manager out there who can get this squad into the playoffs, as I keep needing to repeat myself, I'm of the opinion this squad is closer to a relegation battle in terms of ability than a promotion push.
As has been pointed out multiple times, this Club finishes mid table year after year. There's been no significant investment, nor has the recruitment been at a level where players are significantly better than the outlay for them suggests.

An outsiders view is never a popular one, but the reality is that the Club is a bit like Crystal Palace in the Premier League....A bit of an uneventful nothingness. I think the point about so many of the squad having 100+ Championship games just proves that. There's a reason those players have all those games, and that's because they're not good enough to go further.

I watched the whole game against Watford, and you know the difference between the two sides? Watford had more players with pace and more players who could move with the ball and progress the side forward....And that's a Watford side who will finish 8th-14th, yet are still stronger than PNE. PNE had one player capable of that, in Millar and that seemed the plan all game, give it to him and see what could happen.

Another player like Millar on the other side, a more mobile striker, a couple of CBs who are mobile and good on the ball and a more competent partner in the middle for Browne, and you may progress to the Top 10.

 

[Skin & Rathbone]

We have different interpretations of 'improve' though.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond however I suspect this is the irreconcilable difference. I suspect too we have different ideas of what a manager is able to do. I am still oblivious as to what you think Lowe is bringing to the table and how you think he's going to help improve it. I will highlight three areas where we can improve on him, tactically, coaching and transfer activity. I will even propose unimaginative managerial choices.

I do think there are more suitable formations for the players available. I do think we can strive for better (stop making the same mistakes for a start). I do think there are more tactically astute managers available. You have managers like Mowbray who might help us create more. You have ones like Gary Rowett who might make us more defensively solid.

Moreover, I haven't seen one player improve as a footballer in their time here under Lowe. Under previous managers I have. Moyes and Davies improved players. I'd say Alex Neil improved a few too like Browne (goal output, passing), Davies (composure), Hugill (finishing) and Robinson (heading and strength, although had other flaws though. I dare say a few have gone backwards under Lowe. I do think there are better coaches available. Paul Heckingbottom is available.

If, as you keep saying, the squad is weak. Lowe is clearly culpable. He has brought in a lot of the players you don't think are good enough and brought in Mrkt Insights. Lowe consistently insists he is happy with the squad too. During the summer both us and Ipswich spent about a similar amount of money. Luton last year didn't spend a lot (the list goes on). I do think there are better recruiters available. If your previous statements about Nigel Pearson being so good with recruitment are accurate, he's available too.

I won't respond further because we're just wasting eachother's time because we're very clearly on different pages.

 

[simon_pne]

You could say that about Lowe's squad too right?

Just because Ipswich are overachieving and taking full advantage of their promotion momentum, it should not be used as a yardstick to measure Lowe's performance. Especially when it can be argued Lowe has also got PNE overachieving, just not to the same levels. With this squad 8th is performing above (realistic) expectations.

How many times have you watched us this year?

 

[Final Stand]

We have different interpretations of 'improve' though. I don't think there is a manager out there who can get this squad into the playoffs, as I keep needing to repeat myself, I'm of the opinion this squad is closer to a relegation battle in terms of ability than a promotion push.
As has been pointed out multiple times, this Club finishes mid table year after year. There's been no significant investment, nor has the recruitment been at a level where players are significantly better than the outlay for them suggests.

An outsiders view is never a popular one, but the reality is that the Club is a bit like Crystal Palace in the Premier League....A bit of an uneventful nothingness. I think the point about so many of the squad having 100+ Championship games just proves that. There's a reason those players have all those games, and that's because they're not good enough to go further.

I watched the whole game against Watford, and you know the difference between the two sides? Watford had more players with pace and more players who could move with the ball and progress the side forward....And that's a Watford side who will finish 8th-14th, yet are still stronger than PNE. PNE had one player capable of that, in Millar and that seemed the plan all game, give it to him and see what could happen.

Another player like Millar on the other side, a more mobile striker, a couple of CBs who are mobile and good on the ball and a more competent partner in the middle for Browne, and you may progress to the Top 10.

You need to get out more !