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Budget 2023

There is a societal shift. Thats what happens over time and with technology but this whole “well we had to save up and didn’t have credit cards”. Yeah you also lived in times where blacks and Irish weren’t allowed in pubs and host of other unsavoury things and that doesn’t mean you were doing everything right, it was the time you lived in
 
jakehake said:
There is a societal shift. Thats what happens over time and with technology but this whole “well we had to save up and didn’t have credit cards”. Yeah you also lived in times where blacks and Irish weren’t allowed in pubs and host of other unsavoury things and that doesn’t mean you were doing everything right, it was the time you lived in
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Plucking that out of the air in support of your stance is a bit odd.
The fact is, that in order to save for a deposit, more people saved. They were careful with their money. In an age of easy credit, that is a habit which many are not accustomed to.
The housing shortage and the rise in housing costs versus wages which leads to houses becoming less affordable, is without doubt a problem requiring a solution.
That doesn’t mean to say that the so-called ‘trope of materialism’ has no place in the discussion. What we do with our money comes down to both personal choice and circumstances.
 
Mer5eywhite said:
Plucking that out of the air in support of your stance is a bit odd.
The fact is, that in order to save for a deposit, more people saved. They were careful with their money. In an age of easy credit, that is a habit which many are not accustomed to.
The housing shortage and the rise in housing costs versus wages which leads to houses becoming less affordable, is without doubt a problem requiring a solution.
That doesn’t mean to say that the so-called ‘trope of materialism’ has no place in the discussion. What we do with our money comes down to both personal choice and circumstances.
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It was pointing out how society and attitudes shift fast in the scheme of time. How many people from this generation or the generation above have ever had a zero hours contract as their main job or “career”? Vs those generations below us where it’s becoming normalised?

Saying everyone wants the latest phone or the biggest TV is like turning your nose up at the neighbour who had to hire the Video Recorder from the shop along with the video they wanted to watch just because you couldn’t afford to. There’s always been forms of materialism it’s just changed over time as technology and consumerism has changed and evolved.

If people genuinely don’t feel worried for younger generations and sit behind a stance that their life wasn’t easy so why should someone else’s be, it maybe explains part of the problem
 
jakehake said:
It was pointing out how society and attitudes shift fast in the scheme of time. How many people from this generation or the generation above have ever had a zero hours contract as their main job or “career”? Vs those generations below us where it’s becoming normalised?

Saying everyone wants the latest phone or the biggest TV is like turning your nose up at the neighbour who had to hire the Video Recorder from the shop along with the video they wanted to watch just because you couldn’t afford to. There’s always been forms of materialism it’s just changed over time as technology and consumerism has changed and evolved.

If people genuinely don’t feel worried for younger generations and sit behind a stance that their life wasn’t easy so why should someone else’s be, it maybe explains part of the problem
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Whichever way you cut it, the current younger generation starting out in the workplace have been sold down the river. And theres little sign of that changing. I used to think those 10 years older than me had the best of times. I now realise my generation is maybe the last one to 'benefit' from what have been govts spaffing for the present for votes, instead of investing for the countrys future. Anyone under 50 or so is paying for those wasted years
 
jakehake said:
It was pointing out how society and attitudes shift fast in the scheme of time. How many people from this generation or the generation above have ever had a zero hours contract as their main job or “career”? Vs those generations below us where it’s becoming normalised?

Saying everyone wants the latest phone or the biggest TV is like turning your nose up at the neighbour who had to hire the Video Recorder from the shop along with the video they wanted to watch just because you couldn’t afford to. There’s always been forms of materialism it’s just changed over time as technology and consumerism has changed and evolved.

If people genuinely don’t feel worried for younger generations and sit behind a stance that their life wasn’t easy so why should someone else’s be, it maybe explains part of the problem
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I actually do worry about them. I am concerned about them, that’s precisely why I mentioned both choice AND circumstance.
However, tritely disregarding Ando’s opinion as a lazy trope, was, in my opinion, a little smug.
There is obviously a structural problem caused by poor government but there is also room for some, in improving their choices on spending - or is personal responsibility a thing of the past? Should we all just curl up and succour at the teat of government?
It’s a balance.
 
Mer5eywhite said:
I actually do worry about them. I am concerned about them, that’s precisely why I mentioned both choice AND circumstance.
However, tritely disregarding Ando’s opinion as a lazy trope, was, in my opinion, a little smug.
There is obviously a structural problem caused by poor government but there is also room for some, in improving their choices on spending - or is personal responsibility a thing of the past? Should we all just curl up and succour at the teat of government?
It’s a balance.
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Yet homogenising an entire generation as doing the same thing is balance? There are lots of that generation saving, or going without and trying to give themselves a chance against an economic backdrop and society that is far from what it has been previously. But if you think that's people wanting the teat of the Government then I guess we aren't going to get anywhere
 
Portishead said:
Whichever way you cut it, the current younger generation starting out in the workplace have been sold down the river. And theres little sign of that changing. I used to think those 10 years older than me had the best of times. I now realise my generation is maybe the last one to 'benefit' from what have been govts spaffing for the present for votes, instead of investing for the countrys future. Anyone under 50 or so is paying for those wasted years
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Believe it or not, I actually agree with you
 
Ando60 said:
I think that the problem with a lot of todays young people ( I am only really making this judgement on the 20-somethings that I came across at BAES ) is that want everything straight away : New houses, new cars, new phones and they want promoting before they have even got any of life's experiences....
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Sorry mate, that's utter guff.
 
jakehake said:
Yet homogenising an entire generation as doing the same thing is balance? There are lots of that generation saving, or going without and trying to give themselves a chance against an economic backdrop and society that is far from what it has been previously. But if you think that's people wanting the teat of the Government then I guess we aren't going to get anywhere
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I largely agree with you.
We lie to our children and we have been doing it for years.
The promise of 'education' education' 'education' was complete horseshit. Young people work far harder in school and college than I ever did and more so than most of my peers. The failure of successive governments to create a vibrant, modern, diverse, technical economy is a completely broken promise. It is why regions like the north west are reliant on technical apprenticeships largely being provided by BAe because we manufacture almost nothing else.

I have told my own kids to get as high above the rising water line as they can and once they are there not to forget the people 'below' them. Don't leave them behind, try to take them with you. We currently rent property out to tenants at £420 per month. That's £180 below the market rate. That's over £2000 a year which can be saved. I've had tenants save to successfully get on the property ladder and I've a couple now doing the same. Just because I believe in personal responsibility doesn't mean that I don't care.
 
raefil said:
Sorry mate, that's utter guff.
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Not in all cases it isn't, disregarding it as guff is ignoring reality. My own cousin had the opportunity to save and buy a house in the last 12/15 years. He could have added it to an inheritance and bought his own place for his family. Instead he spent it on holidays and shite. Now he's pissed off that he's still renting.

The situation is definitely shit for young people but to say that some of them shouldn't also make better choices, is suggesting that they lack any agency whatsoever.
 
Mer5eywhite said:
I largely agree with you.
We lie to our children and we have been doing it for years.
The promise of 'education' education' 'education' was complete horseshit. Young people work far harder in school and college than I ever did and more so than most of my peers. The failure of successive governments to create a vibrant, modern, diverse, technical economy is a completely broken promise. It is why regions like the north west are reliant on technical apprenticeships largely being provided by BAe because we manufacture almost nothing else.

I have told my own kids to get as high above the rising water line as they can and once they are there not to forget the people 'below' them. Don't leave them behind, try to take them with you. We currently rent property out to tenants at £420 per month. That's £180 below the market rate. That's over £2000 a year which can be saved. I've had tenants save to successfully get on the property ladder and I've a couple now doing the same. Just because I believe in personal responsibility doesn't mean that I don't care.
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What would £600(£420) get someone up there?
 
Mer5eywhite said:
Not in all cases it isn't, disregarding it as guff is ignoring reality. My own cousin had the opportunity to save and buy a house in the last 12/15 years. He could have added it to an inheritance and bought his own place for his family. Instead he spent it on holidays and shite. Now he's pissed off that he's still renting.

The situation is definitely shit for young people but to say that some of them shouldn't also make better choices, is suggesting that they lack any agency whatsoever.
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Guff<--------------------------------->reality<------------------------------->Majority of 20 year olds are feckless wastrels
 
Mer5eywhite said:
Not in all cases it isn't, disregarding it as guff is ignoring reality. My own cousin had the opportunity to save and buy a house in the last 12/15 years. He could have added it to an inheritance and bought his own place for his family. Instead he spent it on holidays and shite. Now he's pissed off that he's still renting.

The situation is definitely shit for young people but to say that some of them shouldn't also make better choices, is suggesting that they lack any agency whatsoever.
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You can guarantee the above applies to a large number of young people. They choose to spend all their wages when young on the latest fashion and nights out/holidays rather than saving some towards a house deposit. Then when they're finally ready to settle down they realise that they have nowhere near enough deposit to buy a house so end up having to rent and potentially never owning their own home.

That's why in my opinion finance/budgeting should be part of the core curriculum in high school.
 
Mer5eywhite said:
2 up 2 down
Chorley near all amenities
Back yard with shed
Parking
Attic converted for use as an office/storage
kitchen extension
Small but does the job
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So as a comparison a 2 bed flat is about £1,000pm here, a 2 bed house starts about £1,300pm. We've a BAE Systems in the town that take on Apprentices on the same schemes as Samlesbury/Warton but I'm guessing the salary will be roughly the same rather than double

If you extend the distance to 5 miles to commute it's only £1,200pm, 20 miles it starts to drop to £900. My kids have openly said they feel they would have to move to get on a housing ladder, but that isn't sustainable either flooding areas with the same demographic.

Again the main reason why people struggle with property is the chart I posted yesterday, not because people are wasting money. A big part is maybe because some are realising that it's futile as they can't pay rent and save so there is no real point as their savings rate would never help them get a suitable deposit. Some however are attempting that and saving, and having to save amounts compared to wages that dwarfs what people used to have to save when "we had to save hard and go without to buy our house". Wages and house prices now and then are not comparative anymore
 
jakehake said:
So as a comparison a 2 bed flat is about £1,000pm here, a 2 bed house starts about £1,300pm. We've a BAE Systems in the town that take on Apprentices on the same schemes as Samlesbury/Warton but I'm guessing the salary will be roughly the same rather than double

If you extend the distance to 5 miles to commute it's only £1,200pm, 20 miles it starts to drop to £900. My kids have openly said they feel they would have to move to get on a housing ladder, but that isn't sustainable either flooding areas with the same demographic.

Again the main reason why people struggle with property is the chart I posted yesterday, not because people are wasting money. A big part is maybe because some are realising that it's futile as they can't pay rent and save so there is no real point as their savings rate would never help them get a suitable deposit. Some however are attempting that and saving, and having to save amounts compared to wages that dwarfs what people used to have to save when "we had to save hard and go without to buy our house". Wages and house prices now and then are not comparative anymore
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I think that a lot of the business apprentices that I worked with @ BAE ( Warton / Samlesbury ) can’t believe their luck ….

As an apprentice, they earn £16/17k per year but then after their 2 year apprenticeship is complete at say the age of 20 years old , their salary doubles to £32/34k …. Good luck to them but my point still stands , they have got more money than sense and insist on having new build houses and brand new cars right from the outset….

I know, I have worked with lots of these people….
 
jakehake said:
So as a comparison a 2 bed flat is about £1,000pm here, a 2 bed house starts about £1,300pm. We've a BAE Systems in the town that take on Apprentices on the same schemes as Samlesbury/Warton but I'm guessing the salary will be roughly the same rather than double

If you extend the distance to 5 miles to commute it's only £1,200pm, 20 miles it starts to drop to £900. My kids have openly said they feel they would have to move to get on a housing ladder, but that isn't sustainable either flooding areas with the same demographic.

Again the main reason why people struggle with property is the chart I posted yesterday, not because people are wasting money. A big part is maybe because some are realising that it's futile as they can't pay rent and save so there is no real point as their savings rate would never help them get a suitable deposit. Some however are attempting that and saving, and having to save amounts compared to wages that dwarfs what people used to have to save when "we had to save hard and go without to buy our house". Wages and house prices now and then are not comparative anymore
Click to expand...

I agree it’s a problem. A massive one. In some areas it will clearly be more of a problem than others.
 
Ando60 said:
I think that the problem with a lot of todays young people ( I am only really making this judgement on the 20-somethings that I came across at BAES ) is that want everything straight away : New houses, new cars, new phones and they want promoting before they have even got any of life's experiences....
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And I believe they are encouraged to spend a lot on travelling abroad - whether it's to Thailand or simply a mad long weekend in Barcelona or Budapest - it's just simply no big deal for them. Plane prices are amazingly low and seem to go against the trend of ever-
increasing fuel costs. There's also- more for the 'retirement end' - but by no means exclusively - a right mushrooming of Cruise Ships & Rhine etc river cruises. Some of these ships seem (dimensionally) greater than the Titanic;- they've been banned from Venice etc & are unloved for totally dominating the harbours & small Mediterranean & West Indian resorts without giving much to those local economies.
There didn't used to be the amount of Tourism, and whilst it absolutely supports those regional/ local economies I worry about the damages to all the ecosystems. I'm aware that some Wild-Life tourism in Africa is actually v.good for wildlife because it prevents or cuts down on poaching and/or Big Game Hunting .
But ...those Air Miles.....are they good for the Planet ?
 
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