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Ukraine-Russia Conflict

Zelenskyy: Macron asked Ukraine to make concessions to help Putin save face

‘We won’t help Putin save face by paying with our territory,’ Ukrainian president says.
French President Emmanuel Macron asked Ukraine to make concessions on its sovereignty to help Russian leader Vladimir Putin save face, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said.

In an interview with Italian TV channel RAI’s Porta a Porta talk show broadcast Thursday evening, Zelenskyy was asked about Macron’s comments on Monday, in which he warned Europe must avoid humiliating Putin.

“We want the Russian army to leave our land — we aren’t on Russian soil,” Zelenskyy replied. “We won’t help Putin save face by paying with our territory. That would be unjust.” Zelenskyy added that Ukraine would never recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea.
Macron was looking “in vain” for “a way out for Russia,” Zelenskyy said.

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I just read about some official pleading with Putin to open up the Black Sea ports, since Ukraine provides 12% of the world's grain and this apparently could lead to million(s) of deaths. They said 'if you have a heart', Putin obviously doesn't have much of one at the moment and since him, his family, friends and country have been hit by sanction after sanction, there's not much chance of him helping.
 
JFK-1 said:
Where do you start with this.

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I just have this image of very, very camp Orthodox priests giggling and flicking holy water out of their aspergillums.
"Piotr, you're getting me all wet, you're supposed to be blessing the big missile, you know what they say at the Polunoshnitsa, Piotr... Miss the missile, miss the missile, now you've got to kiss the missile."
 
With very little alternative choice at all both Finland and Sweden bid to join NATO. Both countries have made the right decision for their population, no doubt about it.
 
California_PNE said:
With very little alternative choice at all both Finland and Sweden bid to join NATO. Both countries have made the right decision for their population, no doubt about it.
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Does Sweden need to be part of NATO? I know Kaliningrad is just across the water, but does Russia have any history with them? What motive would Putin use to attack them? Russia annexed part of the Swedish Empire in the 1700s but not Sweden itself. Finland I completely understand with regards to NATO.
 
daddyman16 said:
Does Sweden need to be part of NATO? I know Kaliningrad is just across the water, but does Russia have any history with them? What motive would Putin use to attack them? Russia annexed part of the Swedish Empire in the 1700s but not Sweden itself. Finland I completely understand with regards to NATO.
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Think it's pretty clear why both nations would want to join NATO daddy, and do you blame them?

I certainly don't. If you're a citizen of either country it's plainly a wise and necessary move.
 
daddyman16 said:
Does Sweden need to be part of NATO? I know Kaliningrad is just across the water, but does Russia have any history with them? What motive would Putin use to attack them? Russia annexed part of the Swedish Empire in the 1700s but not Sweden itself. Finland I completely understand with regards to NATO.
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Lots.

Great Northern War (1700-21) for one. Napoleonic wars (Treaty of Tilsit) for another.
 
Following message from Greenpeace (Johnsons idea of playing a blinder)


We just stopped a tanker loaded with Russian fossil fuels from docking near London. If the government won’t say no to funding Putin’s war on Ukraine, then we’ll do it for them.

It’s been nearly three months since Russia invaded Ukraine. Since then, our television screens and social media feeds have been filled with horrific images of war. Putin’s former adviser has said that banning Russian fossil fuels could stop the war. [1] The government said they would block all Russian-owned ships from UK ports but these were empty words, and ships carrying Russian fossil fuels are still entering the UK. [2] [3] [4]

That’s why brave activists have blocked a tanker of Russian oil right now - will you stand with them and send a clear message to Boris Johnson demanding the government stop importing Russian oil and gas, get off fossil fuels and switch to clean energy now?​

A study from April showed the UK has imported nearly two million barrels of Russian oil, worth an estimated £220 million, since the start of the war. And more has arrived since then.​
 
daddyman16 said:
Does Sweden need to be part of NATO? I know Kaliningrad is just across the water, but does Russia have any history with them? What motive would Putin use to attack them? Russia annexed part of the Swedish Empire in the 1700s but not Sweden itself. Finland I completely understand with regards to NATO.
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Regarding NATO membership, there has been a decades long policy/understanding in Sweden that they would follow Finlands lead.
 
I now think Russia are going to lose this war, who would have thought it day one. Saw this clip from Russian State TV which shows this discussion between a retired army officer now military analyst and a real bitch of a woman presenter And he's painting a dire picture to them, which she dislikes intensely. And appears to not like the British much either.

 
JFK-1 said:
I now think Russia are going to lose this war, who would have thought it day one. Saw this clip from Russian State TV which shows this discussion between a retired army officer now military analyst and a real bitch of a woman presenter And he's painting a dire picture to them, which she dislikes intensely. And appears to not like the British much either.

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Britain gets a few mentions. They'll be wanting their money back soon
 
JFK-1 said:
I now think Russia are going to lose this war, who would have thought it day one. Saw this clip from Russian State TV which shows this discussion between a retired army officer now military analyst and a real bitch of a woman presenter And he's painting a dire picture to them, which she dislikes intensely. And appears to not like the British much either.

Click to expand...


Interesting that this guy's view gets onto Russian state TV. I watched it on 0.75x speed to comfortably take it in. Maybe I'm getting old!
 
A guy in Russia who is clearly gulag bound after this little tirade, and reportedly was indeed immediately arrested. But it does demonstrate there's growing dissent and the audience appear to be appreciative of his thoughts.

The bottom video has a translation of what he's saying. Starting with "And now people of Ukraine are being murdered"

 
Like it or not, there's a much wider conflict on the horizon unless this madman is stopped by his own people.

He's clearly demented and his followers must be finding a way to stop supporting this lunatic before it's too late.

I'm ashamed that the rest of the world is watching another free country being obliterated by a despot. This is like reliving Hitler invade and destroy Poland whilst politicians waved bits of paper.

The Russians can't fight a conventional war against a modern well equipped army, they're useless. We take them on now and stop this slaughter and they'll turn on their heels and fuck off back to the cellars of the Kremlin.
 
GloucesterPete said:
Like it or not, there's a much wider conflict on the horizon unless this madman is stopped by his own people.

He's clearly demented and his followers must be finding a way to stop supporting this lunatic before it's too late.

I'm ashamed that the rest of the world is watching another free country being obliterated by a despot. This is like reliving Hitler invade and destroy Poland whilst politicians waved bits of paper.

The Russians can't fight a conventional war against a modern well equipped army, they're useless. We take them on now and stop this slaughter and they'll turn on their heels and fuck off back to the cellars of the Kremlin.
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I begin to get the feeling we're seeing a situation develop where some in the West actually want this to drag out. And not for malevolent reasons. Or not malevolent for us at least. Nor even Ukraine in the long term. Earlier in the conflict Zelensky was regularly pleading for it to stop. This past week or so the US ratified a bill for another aid package wirth tens of billions of dollars to Ukraine.

At this point the US have put around 60 billion dollars into Ukraine and that matches the entire Russian annual defence budget even before tacking on all the money and materials coming in from others including the UK. That can arm them and keep them fighting a very long time. And Zelensky has recently become bolder.

From previously begging for it to stop while asking for negotiations in which he gave the air of a man willing to cede something. He's now the not a square inch will be ceded man and even going so far as to say that Ukraine will never be considered lost either. That's bold talk. And I doubt very much he would be so bold if he weren't being given the nod by the West/NATO.

He said he's going to arm and train a million men. For what? I begin to get the feeling it's been decided on high that you know what. If we're ever going to have a chance to take down this regime or at the very least severely damage it without a head on toe to toe conflict this is it. The biggest ground advantage Russia has had so far is artillery. They have a lot of it Ukraine does not. And what they do have is old Soviet crap.

They're now beginning to field US howitzers which have a greater range than theirs, 15 miles against 10 miles. And even more importantly it fires 'smart shells' which are guaranteed to strike within 2 metres of a chosen target. With his they can start picking off the Russian artillery. And if they can take out the artillery they can make them retreat.

If this struggle continues on the rest of this year and even into next year then before the end of this year Russia will begin to struggle very badly indeed to maintain it. There's already a massive attrition of manpower and equipment which they're going to find ever harder to replace. As the sanctions noose tightens absolutely everything will become harder to replace.

While the Ukrainians on the other hand have an equipment tree they can just shake and it provides an eternal supply of anything you need. If Zelensky really is arming a million men it's because he intends to push them all the way out of Ukraine to pre invasion borders. At a minimum.

What may happen after that I can't imagine. But it would appear the West has decided to make an example of Russia that will be produced as a hint to China. Don't mess with us. We may appear soft but that's misleading.
 
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